Rage Machine —
(This will be my last post on the subject. I began this on Tumblr but by the end it was clear that this was meant to be a post. Next week, clean slate, and more Fierce, Freethinking Fatty badassery.)
So, all of these people are furious that I would suggest (even though I haven’t suggested in the least) that fat spaces should allow smaller fats in or that I think fat spaces aren’t necessary or that I don’t respect the different experiences of different sizes, in particular the struggles of deathfatz. None of this is actually true and I haven’t said anything even remotely close to these things, yet there they are.
And I’ve got this mental image in my head right now of all these people who are angry at me… they’ve got their torches and their pitchforks and their storming the castle (have fun storming the castle!) to tell me just how wrong and horrible I am, and how right and justified everyone else is in telling me so.
That’s cool, I get it. I don’t sweat it.
But all this talk of fat spaces and how sacrosanct they are and how real fat spaces would never subject fatties to the intrusions of the lesser fats, because that would be erasure and appropriation and an outrage and the end of life as we know it.
I just gotta ask these people: do you even subscribe to Deathfatties? Have you even been there lately?
Because before I go there, I want to point out that I’m the one saying that these spaces can be shared without anyone getting their identities or experiences stepped on, and I have absolutely no problem with smaller fats being part of our community.
But Deathfatties has been submitting posts of women who a) don’t look like deathfatz (I do not support making visual assumptions since pictures can be deceiving… Lesley posted hers and someone question her deathfatz cred) and b) deathfatz can’t shop at Target or Old Navy or Torrid or Forever 21 or Avenue, and they certainly aren’t a size 18.
I noticed that some of Definatalie’s outfits are from Target, though, so, I don’t know. But what I do know is that according to Lesley’s list of 4 Deathfat Realities (and sympathizing with my wife’s fashion misery):
I live in a major city, and even in this major city, within thirty minutes’ drive from my home there are exactly three stores that carry my clothing size. Within an hour’s drive stretches that number to five. The overwhelming majority of shops, and there are multitudes of them, do not carry clothing that I can even try on. Because the shops that do exist are exclusively filled with clothing I despise, I must order all of my clothes online. This means paying for shipping and not being able to try stuff on before I buy it. When things don’t fit, I have to pay to ship them back. If I go on vacation and forget my swimsuit, I will probably just have to do without, as I won’t be able to easily find one that fits in a brick-and-mortar shop. If I have an underwire snap while I’m at work, I can’t just jet over to a big-box store for a replacement bra; in fact, I can’t even walk into a Lane Bryant and find one in my size. I have to order it online and wait for it to arrive.
Now, if Deathfatties isn’t a safe space for the fattest of the fat, then I don’t know what is. Yet for months, smaller fats have been submitting there with absolutely ZERO problem. Definatalie can correct me if I’m wrong, but I would assume that if there were complaints, the submissions might have changed or else the intentions of the site clarified. But they haven’t.
So, which is it, angry people? Are you going to demand that Deathfatties allow only deathfatz that share the experiences Lesley outlined or are you going to abandon Deathfatties for allowing smaller fats to “wedge” their way in?
I’ve made my position clear: moderator controls content and if you don’t like the content you take it up with the moderator. My problem throughout this entire debacle has been the way in which people are taking out their frustrations on the women submitting to these sites and not the moderators. I have repeatedly asked for greater civility and understanding regarding the people who submit to fat spaces. I’ve certainly gotten aggressive, but my anger stems from the frustration of hearing smaller fats say they feel excluded from Fat Acceptance or reading hostile, hateful messages to smaller fats because they “violated” your fat space.
Well, considering this hasn’t been an issue up until this discussion, I have to assume that the majority of you have not had a problem with smaller fats submitting to fat spaces until this moment.
Why have you changed your mind? Why is it suddenly so important to enforce these spaces when these spaces have been violated by smaller fats in the past?
Finally, I want to point out this phrase on the Deathfatties page:
This tumblr is dedicated to showcasing the vitality and visibility of those who self-identify as “deathfat”.
[emphasis mine]
There’s been a lot of discussion about whether so-and-so is an in-betweenie, whether X qualifies as fat, whether labels are necessary or appropriate, whether people can simply self-identify their size.
Yet right here, Definatalie has made it clear that her blog is for those who self-identify as “deathfat.” She doesn’t say “those who are ‘deathfat’” or “those who qualify under the generally accepted terms of ‘deathfat’” or “those whose BMIs put them in the morbidly obese category, therefore making them ‘deathfat.’” She says “self-identify.”
And throughout this discussion, I have promoted the idea that once someone becomes part of Fat Acceptance, that they are fully capable of self-identifying however they like without fear of erasing or appropriating anothers’ identity.
Yet I would venture to guess that were I to show you some of the submissions on Deathfatties without context and ask “Is this person deathfatz,” you would pick out more than a few that you believe do not qualify.
These are the things I have been saying since the beginning. Maybe I’ve said them brusquely, but my message has always been the same.
Finally, I want to conclude by proposing a new definition of Fat Acceptance… hell, I don’t even know if there is an established definition, but this is what I believe Fat Acceptance is and should be.
Fat Acceptance is the radical belief that the amount of fat on your body does not determine your worth, your beauty, your health or your role in our society. Fat Acceptance is about helping people learn to accept their bodies as they are today and not as they would like for them to be tomorrow. Fat Acceptance is about learning from the experiences of those of differing sizes and how we can best support them in living a life full of dignity, respect, personal choice and freedom. And, finally, Fat Acceptance is not about trimming the branches of the societal ills that plague larger and smaller fats alike, but about tearing up the roots of oppression that contribute to both fat hatred and body dysmorphia, and make life in an “imperfect” body all the more difficult.
This is my definition of Fat Acceptance, and you can take it or leave it. But I’m through trying to make all the things I have come to learn and understand and believe about the human body fit into another person’s definition of Fat Acceptance. I’m through with being told that my contributions aren’t valid because I’m a man, because I’m not fat enough, because I am not willing to let this movement be segregated into labels and categories or allow a person’s contributions to be contingent upon their experience.
Fat Acceptance HAS to be about EVERY body, not just the fattest of the fat. And we have to make clear that the goals of Fat Acceptance are to improve the lives of ALL bodies everywhere, even the thin dysmorphic who don’t “qualify” as fat. Each body type has their own unique challenges and issues, it’s true, but we don’t just have to focus on one set of problems at a time.
Morbidly obese people (those with a BMI over 40) make up just 5.7% of the population, yet 5.7% of the population are not the only ones under fire for their fatness. The Harvard School of Public Health is hard at work trying to convince the world that being in the overweight category is a death sentence and now those with a BMI of 30 (and one comorbidity) can get a lap band.
Next they’re turning on teenagers, and you all know someone (or quite possibly are that someone) whose parents would have pressured their teenage son or daughter to get the lap band.
This is a major issue and we need as many voices helping fight against this bullshit as possible. I don’t care if you hate me. I don’t care if you think I’m a homophobic dickface or not (neither is true, by the way… I fully support gay rights and I don’t have a single phallic feature on my face), I want you on my side fighting this battle.
Someday we’re going to have a Fierce, Freethinking Fatty Festival, and each and every one of you is invited to join in the celebration without any obligation to hang out with me or be my buddy or even acknowledge my presence. I don’t care if you like me personally. But we are all fighting for the same fucking goal and whether you like it or not, I have some mad skills to contribute to Fat Acceptance. And if you can’t accept me as a part of this community, then I don’t know what to say. I’m sorry? Good luck? Good riddance?
In any case, I’m officially through with this issue. I think it’s an important one, but I think it is preventing us from tackling bigger, more pressing issues.
I will always, ALWAYS welcome dialogue and disagreement. But I draw the line at disrespect. I’m going to go back through and read all my posts on Tumblr to see if I crossed that line and if I did, I will apologize. And if you think I did, tell me where and if I agree, I will apologize. But I am no longer going to allow this discussion to consume my mind and energy the way it has for the past week.
Good luck to you all and I hope you appreciate where I’m coming from.
UPDATE
I really don’t know how it came to this point. I don’t know if I’m a “small fat,” “deathfat,” or somewhere in between. All I know is that even when I was “normal weight” and had a BMI of 25, people called me “fat” because I have a large caboose and after I had my son I had a kangaroo pouch. I’m bigger than that at this point. I weigh 275 and wear a size 20. I really don’t know where that falls. I had no idea I had to be careful about accidentally treading into sacred spaces. And when I was thirteen, weighed 116 pounds, and errantly considered myself “fat,” I would not have known that either. I think this whole thing is awful, personally. People are so mean these days. We need to be kinder to each other. I don’t know about the rest of y’all, but I’m fighting a hard battle. As well as physical issues, I live with mental illness. Sometimes its hard for me to even get out of bed. I literally refuse to own a gun because if I did there’s a good chance I would use it on myself. I hate to admit it but I’m very sensitive and people’s nasty comments can really throw me into a dark place. Some might say this means I should stay in hiding and stay off the Internet. But if I did that I wouldn’t be able to combat the ugliness in the world. So, like it or not, here I am.
Come on, People–let’s just be nicer to each other. You never know what the recipient of your nastiness is going through.
Did I miss something??? You’ve never treated me any differently than anyone else. I’m 375 lbs and 5’11″. I’m definitely deathfat. Uh…. what the heck did I miss? I’m not on tumblr, so maybe that’s why. But I would really appreciate it if someone could explain to me the origin of this issue. Uh, I’ve also been sick this week so maybe I need to catch up on backlog here…
I re-read the whole article again and I still don’t understand why this is all being said *now* and where it came from. If people have been accepting smaller fatties as part of the movement for a long time, why would it suddenly be a problem now? I’m so confused. Maybe it just doesn’t make any sense?
Hi Jillian,
Long story short, it’s complicated. But it started here, then turned into this. Basically, people are saying that fat spaces need to be protected from smaller fats. Then there’s all kind of outrage all around. I’m not sure how to help you get caught up though. Basically, I think that even if you want to protect a fat space, it does not mean you can belittle or demean smaller fats or tell them they aren’t fat or in any way body police people. Try to see if you can follow the thread and if you have questions, just let me know.
Peace,
Shannon
Thanks for those links. I should be able to get more on-track with this discussion from reading them and re-reading this article. I totally disagree with the division of people within “fat.” It doesn’t matter who is fatter and who is not as fat. We’re all being marginalized here, and we all need to work towards fixing the same things. Or else there’s no way we’re going to accomplish anything.
I think we have to take into consideration that a person who is over 500lb is going to be institutionally discriminated (for example) against more than someone who is 200lb is going to be. Some fat people will never fit into an airline seat or a cinema seat or be able to buy clothes in a store. Other fat people are privileged enough to be able to do those things, so while there is some truth to the ‘we are all being marginalised’ trope, we still need to realise and understand that there are fats who are being marginalised in different ways that other fats simply because they are fatter.
I understand that some fats are marginalized more than others. I really do. I’m not trying to say that everyone’s experiences are the same. I’m just saying that none of it should be happening. I think someone who is over 500 lbs should be able to exist without marginalization. I’m not trying to devalue that experience. I have been both almost 500 lbs (481) and 150 lbs when I was younger. I didn’t experience more or less harassment at either weight, although I do agree that it made it more difficult to fly. I think that part of the movement should be fighting for accommodation for people on the upper end of the fat-o-sphere so that these privileges do not exist. Personally, I have been able to do all the things you mention, at one time or another, while I was 481 pounds. I’m not sure why. But there do exist people who weigh more than that, and we should fight for their acceptance, too.
Take your time… there’s a lot to read and if you get overwhelmed, just walk away.
Read what The Rotund and donewiththisshit had to say, read Jen’s post (which wasn’t intended to be a post on FFFs… sorry again Jen), but don’t read this shit (okay, do, if only to enjoy the way they’re talking shit about me, yet nobody mentions my name… like I’m fucking Beetlejuice). There’s a very special place on my shit list (which is rather short, to be honest) for Brian (aka Red No. 3).
Anyway, I don’t think any of the major bloggers are advocating only fixing the deathfatz problems. I just think they believe that I’m advocating smaller fats over and above deathfatz, which is not the case in the least. I think the airline seat issue is an important one. Something needs to be done both for the comfort and safety of fat people. People make the issue about how oppressed skinny people are in seats with fat people… well, shit, fat people don’t like being squeezed into a 70s movie theater seat for 8 hours. Why not just have one row with two wider seats, give the measurements, not as a threat (“IF YOUR ASS IS BIGGER THAN 23 CENTIMETERS NO FLY!!!!”), but as a genuine benefit to your larger clients. Some fatties will spring for the larger seats and some won’t be able to afford to. But either way, there’s all kinds of people I’d be uncomfortable sitting next to for an 8 hour flight, but I don’t get to pick and choose.
Anyway, off on a tangent. Thanks for contributing Jillian.
Peace,
Shannon
Tangent’s cool. The airline seats could be fixed in a number of ways, but the airlines probably do not wish to spend money to do so. When I did fly I flew first class, but even then the flight attendant attempted to cause a problem and was thwarted by the guy sitting next to me.
I guess I don’t know why other deathfats are feeling threatened. I have friends who are smaller fats who have told me they feel excluded because fatshionista changed their rules to allow less smaller fats in. But there isn’t this cry of outrage about that. Why is there with this? I have some more stuff still to read, so I might have more thoughts after that.
You know it would be really cool if anyone could arrange a chat between you, a couple of your counterpoints, and the moderator who’s been approving these pictures. Maybe then we could find out if it *is* possible or not for all of us to work together and how we can all best serve the movement. Just an idea.
Working on contributing on a more regular basis. XD
This smaller (and height challenged to boot) fatty really appreciates FFF and wants to continue participating in the dialogue. Your blog has been part of my journey. I believe it will remain so. Many thanks!
NewMe,
This dialogue is open to everyone. Anyone interested in tearing out the roots of oppression are welcome in our Fat Acceptance community. I’m glad we’ve been able to be part of your journey… looking back and seeing how far you’ve come is the best. You’re welcome!
Peace,
Shannon
The ones calling for your head on a platter are the really radical fat activists, where everything is black and white and there is no wiggle room, pardon the pun. I wouldn’t worry about it.
The majority of this so-called obesity epidemic is like you said made up of smaller fats, not deathfatties like me so why are some being unaccepting of this population? That’s their problem to deal with. If more and more people are starting to come to terms with their bodies, even if those bodies are not as big as they want them to be, then that should be treated as a good thing.
lifeonfats,
You’re right. Radicals tend to dislike moderates for not completely converting to their way of thinking. Radicals serve a valuable purpose in any political movement, but it’s the moderates who ultimately help get the message to the general population. Radicals give us the space to begin an open and honest dialogue with the broader community.
adicals, by their nature, are difficult for the “mainstream” to accept because they’re so… well.. radical. And I adore radicals. I think they’re fucking hardcore, ass-kicking spectacular badasses. They make the message come alive for those of us on the borderline of radical and moderate. They inspire us to learn more and do more and really make this philosophy on life, on health, on love, on everything that makes basic human decency an absolute mandate for any decent society.
It’s not that the struggles of deathfatz are not important or less important than smaller fats. It’s that all the various forms of oppression have an impact on our lives. Being a smaller fats and having a sister to compare yourself to your whole life or being a larger fats and never seeing your body represented… it can gnaw at both souls equally. But both issues have a common cause, and we can either choose to address one branch at a time or head straight for the root.
The sooner we get society to accept that fat people aren’t folk devils, the sooner we can get on to living our lives in peace. And with that…
Peace,
Shannon
I don’t object to “smaller fats” sharing a space. I don’t even really object to women who THINK they’re fat sharing a space. I’d prefer it if the size-6s-who-think-they’re-fat could flip a switch and realize how skinny they truly are, but it isn’t a perfect world. I find myself at a loss of how to respond beyond that, because the logic and reality fail of calling a (for example) US size 10-woman fat is so egregious and hard for me to grasp that I don’t know what to do or say. I won’t lie to them and tell them they’re fat, because they aren’t, but neither can I call bullshit, because then I come off like an asshat.
I guess all I’ll say is that I don’t think you’re a homophobic dickface, Atchka.
CC,
Getting them on the path to Fat Acceptance is the way you help them flip that switch. The size 6 woman who claimed to be an in-betweenie wasn’t aware that there was a dress size requirement either. She said she wouldn’t use the label, but that it has left her feeling like she has no label. And that’s just stupid… not her, the fact that she’s been made to feel that way. I think we should all just make up our own labels just to fuck with them. From now on, I’m a superfatz. What are you?
Peace,
Mr. Homophobic Dickface
Shannon, I don’t think you’ve been out of line at all on this and I agree that the ones calling for your head on this are the really radical fat activists (probably the same ones who said I didn’t belong in FA when I first came on the scene 4 years ago, simply because I had had WLS long before I even fucking knew FA existed and even tho that WLS failed and I was fatter than I’d ever been). And I have the same thing to say them now that I had to say them then – eat shit and bark at the moon, motherfuckers, we’re here to stay, fucking deal with it. I get so pissed off that some people think they can pick and choose who their allies are – only fatties of a certain size, only fatties who have never dieted, only fatties who have never had/considered WLS, only fatties who toe this certain line, blah-de-fucking-blah. Yeah, good luck with that and good luck accomplishing your goals while kicking allies out of the FA tent. Those of us that you don’t want in your particular brand of FA – we’ll be over here working on fat acceptance for all fatties, no matter what degree of fat they have on their bodies.
Thanks vesta,
I think there’s this need to put allies in their place… they’re not the “real” activists… they’re “just” allies. Fuck that. Anyone fighting for this cause has just as much value and worth to me as the fattest and raddest fatty you can think of (Kelly Drinkwater comes to mind). Everybody plays a role in fighting this fight. You don’t treat the army’s cook like shit just because he’s not on the frontlines. That man gives you nourishment and… um… grey gelatinous food stuff. I think my metaphor is breaking down.
Anyway, if you’re supporting Fat Acceptance, you’re absolutely welcome and safe at FFFs.
Peace,
Shannon
Wow! I like this post. And now I have a headache. Thanks. Seriously thank you. It’s a good headache, one caused form brain overexertion. I just want to scream can’t we all just get along!!!!! Although I know this will never happen. Quite frankly, because of that, I just want to go hide under a rock. It’s tiring all this bickering over who’s fat, who’s not… blah, blah, blah. Me – who the f cares! I see beauty everywhere and I’d like to keep it that way. Thank you!
Take four ibuprofen and lie down.
No, wait… take two Twix and lie down, you’ll be fine.
And I forgot about the song I was going to include in this post, so hit refresh. Thanks for the inspiration.
I want to be friends with these people. I’ve sent emails saying, “Hey, awesome post, I love your work.” but they can’t get past whichever offense(s) I’ve committed. I get it, I’ve said some stupid and inappropriate shit, but I learn from my fucking mistakes. You would think they people descended from the heavens in a chariot of chocolate drawn by angels.
Anyway, yeah, let’s forget about the drama and work together against the real problems.
Welcome to Fierce Fatties, Twix.
Peace,
Shannon
Just for interest sake, I am deathfat at over 300lb and I can buy clothes at both Target nad Torrid. Not sure why you would think that I wouldnt be able to…
(And I am just not getting involved in the rest of it. Burying my head in the sand if you like).
Bri,
a mentions in the comment below you that Australia’s Target has a good plus-sized collection, but in the States, we don’t. It’s been a loooooooooong time since my wife (400 pounds) has been able to buy any clothes from Target or any other store except maybe a place called Catherine’s and the rest is online. Part of my problem with this discussion has been the suggestion from people that we determine a person’s label by their clothing size (in particular, the in-betweenie label). There is no universal definition of “deathfatz,” but Lesley outlined some of the common experiences of deathfatz, which includes a limited selection of clothing at mainstream, or even plus-sized, stores.
My point in isolating certain individuals was not to reinforce the belief that deathfatz is determined by dress size, but to bring attention to the fact that there is no universal definition of deathfatz, and that even Natalie herself has said that submissions to Deathfatties is based on self-identification, which has been my contention all along. People have been claiming that fat spaces need to be off limits for smaller fats, but some of the women I’ve seen on Deathfatties look like smaller fats. But that’s my opinion, and if I were in the Fat Spaces Preservation Society, I could say, “Hey, these women aren’t fat enough to be deathfatz! They’re erasing my body!”
I realize that most people have lost track of my point because of my hostility, but for every response I make, at least five people come back attacking me for not respecting fat spaces, not respecting the various experiences of difference sizes, and wanting to appropriate fat spaces for thin people. I guess I could just shut my mouth and let people misrepresent my views and trash talk me, but you know I’m not going to do that.
Nowhere have I said that the marginalization is the same for all sizes. What I have said is that the source of that marginalization is the same and that we need to confront the roots of the problem and not spend so much time focusing on the branches. If we continue trying to enforce labels, then we’re going to marginalize the very people we’re trying to help, like the girl from the original photo.
Allow people to self-identify, allow moderators to enforce the boundaries, and allow all people to love themselves. That’s all I want.
Peace,
Shannon
Atchka, if you weren’t married I swear I’d kiss you!
I don’t understand how people (any people) can get to the point where they’re so nasty and horrible to other people… PEOPLE! Especially ones who know what it’s like to have to deal with the crap that fatz people do..
(I’m from Australia, so’s Definatalie, and Target here has a pretty mad selection of plus size clothes, not super stylish, but they do good basics and occasionally pop out a winner.. Plus they’re good quality for the price too which helps
)
Thanks a.
I wish we lived in Australia because our Targets suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck. I mean, I love Target, but there’s nothing there clothingwise for my wife. Most stores don’t have anything and the ones that do are hideous prints and patterns. She hates buying clothes online, but that’s pretty much her only option.
But I don’t think a person’s identity should be related to what size they wear, anyway. A person’s identity is personal. And it can change over time. Maybe my experience leads me to take the identity of in-betweenie because of the way my family treats me or my doctor or classmates. I think fat identities have to be relative because our body sizes and experiences are.
Peace,
Shannon
I’ve kept out of the discussion even though I’ve tried typing up a comment many times this weeks for fear of intruding into a space that has been reserved for others. I’ve firmly planted myself in the FA camp as a sympathizer, but I’m not living the reality of a fatty so I feel like I shouldn’t comment on that.
Most “hardliners” have made me feel as though, as a “normal-weight, borderline obese” person I’m not qualified or allowed to share in the fight, even though it’s an issue that’s close to my heart. Exclusivity and labels have never been my thing, so I can’t comment on that either.
All in all, I’m just happy that I’m still welcome here- I’ll support and cheer all I can, and I’m not afraid to speak up if there’s yet another “OBESITY! OMG we’re going to die young!” panic.
Thanks for having me
I hate that people who are contributing to the movement, people who would be there, boots on the ground, if we needed them, are made to feel less important. And I don’t think it’s intentional or anything, but the general attitude is kind of fostering that environment. I think it’s a dangerous road to go down, and one that is ultimately unproductive for the movement.
There’s this weird assumption that people like you, Nell, have been claiming that your experience is the same as deathfatz, but I haven’t seen that at all. Someone saying, “I feel fat” is not saying, “I can’t fit in an airline seat, people make rude comments about my body, and I’m not given reasonable healthcare.” And there’s this other, even more absurd idea, that thin people want to take over fat spaces, or as one person put it, “wedge” themselves into Fat Acceptance. Wanting to be a part is not “wedging,” it’s joining a community and sharing in the common belief.
You are always welcome here… everyone is.
Peace,
Shannon
This definition of fat acceptance totally works for me. The objective I believe for all of us involved in the F.A. movement is when this definition can read exactly the same but without the word radical in it anymore. When FA becomes a belief, an assumption, a human tenet, then as a movement we have succeeded! It’s a huge task, a monumental challenge. It took a lot of people abusing and discriminating people for being fat to get us here and it will take a lot of people who have been abused or know someone that was to fight back and change the perceptions of our culture.
Thank you for everything you are doing and for your inclusiveness!