Activist are Angry.
Maybe I was naive. When I first found Fat Acceptance I had this idea in my head. I thought it would be like other communities I’m a part of.
I grew up in geek culture. I didn’t really worry about making friends in school or get caught up in the popular or not popular mindset. The people that wanted me around came from other places.
There’s interpersonal drama in geek culture but, in general, there’s also a push to be inclusive. Maybe it’s becasue geeks are used to getting rejected and so they don’t like taking on that role.
For whatever reason, my experiences with the people in Fat Acceptance didn’t live up to my expectations. But I still care about the cause of Fat Rights, so it hasn’t been that easy to just let go of my disappointment and move on.
It’s easier to forgive something when you understand it. So I want to understand. Why is it that FA culture is so exclusive and, at times, the behaviors of the people within the community downright mean?
The first piece of my understanding was about us all being independently minded people. In order to find Fat Acceptance you have to be able to fight past the general consensus about fat.
When you put together a group of people with strong opinions, infighting is inevitable. Those of us within FA work so hard to be firm in our opinions that I think sometimes it can be hard to have them challenged with even idle questions.
But the whole “that’s so FA 101″ think still bothers me. I can understand fighting about the details of the movement. But why is it that there seems to be this unwillingness to have patience with newbies?
The anti-mentoring mindset of FA baffles me. And the whole ganging up on those who make the slightest misstep not only flummoxes me, it also pisses me off. But I think the ganging up behavior is a symptom of the whole “that’s so FA 101″ mindset.
And then, like a week ago, something struck me. I had like a ‘duh’ moment. I thought to myself, ‘Activists are angry.’
There’s this weird thing I’ve noticed. People are nicer to strangers than they are to their friends and family.
Trolls are mean becasue of the anonymity of the internet. They drop in to say mean things and then usually leave just as quickly.
The surprising thing is that people that care about FA are accused of being trolls becasue they challenge the consensus. But I think that’s more about the whole family dynamics thing, than about them actually being trolls.
If you take into account that activists are angry and people in FA are activists, then I think some of the bad behavior within the FA community is about misdirected anger.
Its easy to lash out that those closest to us. But it isn’t fair or right. It isn’t a good excuse. It’s simply an explanation.
I still believe the FA community should strive to mentor those within our community and be inviting to those outside our community. We should direct our anger to those that deserve it and not let it pull apart our community.
But, from a very personal perspective, I feel a little less angry at the community now that I feel like I understand. This doesn’t mean I forgive or that I’m any less determined to change things.
It just means I’m not angry anymore. Which, for me at least, is a better place to be.
It’s almost like certain people feel that Fat Acceptance has been established and therefore anyone new to FA must educate themselves prior to joining. I find that attitude quite irritating. Most newbies don’t know if they buy into all these FA stuff and they just want to see what it’s about. So, they ask a question and get reamed for not already knowing the answer.
I don’t know how exclusive this attitude is to FA. Other political activist groups seem to have this same issue. The one I’m more familiar with is feminism. Some feminists seem to have a “with us or against us” attitude that interprets any skepticism, any doubt on the part of newbies as more hostile than it probably is.
I think part of that attitude (both in feminism and FA) is based on a defensive posture that the activists are used to holding. They are constantly barraged by genuinely hostile forces whose angry reaction to even the activist’s most moderate points can put you on a constant state of alert. You’re constantly wanting to assert the “rightness” of your side and, in doing so, you trample a lot of clueless naifs.
That was one of the goals with FFFs… create a space where newbies could ask questions and challenge what they don’t understand. That’s how we educate, people!
Peace,
Shannon
atchka -
I think you hit on what inspired this post. It’s not exclusive to FA. I actually realized the whole “activists are angry” thing after watching similar drama in a different activist community.
I think the anger is a useful motivating tool but the balance of a bit of patience and willingness to nurture those that are interested in your cause are also important.
And you know I’m all down with “lets educate not alienate.”
I don’t agree with everything that the folks over here seem to think of as “mainline” FA, and I comment pretty actively in the ‘sphere. (Under a variety of names, most of which are some variation on Simone Lovelace.) Aside from having a couple comments censored at SP, I don’t feel that I’ve ever been smacked down in a major way.
Frankly, I think it’s completely reasonable that many FA forums would expect members to accept-or at least be open to-a few core beliefs before they try inserting themselves in the conversation.
FA blogs and forums serve a number of purposes. It’s great that the contributers on this site are eager to education the masses. No really, it’s wonderful. But it’s not everyone’s job. Nor is it everyone’s responsibility to provide a completely open forum.
The fact is, I hear the message “Your fat thighs are taking years off your life / totally your own fault / the reason no one will ever love you” every day of my life.
When I browse over the Shakesville, or Fatshionista, I love knowing that in those places, I won’t have to hear any variation of the above-not in the posts, and not in the comments.
Does that mean there are some important conversations that can’t happen on those sites? Eh, maybe. Do I care? No.
As long as there are a few sites that are open and welcoming to everyone, I think it’s A-okay for most sites to be a bit more exclusive. If nothing else, it prevents having to have the same damn conversations, over and over again…
Simone -
It sounds like you and I don’t come out on the same side of this issue. You like the exclusivity of FA and I don’t.
I would argue that there is no FA 101 book or website that lays out the “core beliefs” of FA. And, depending on who you talk to, the answer as to what constitutes FA varies. Your expecting people to know what they’re talking about before they join the conversation, without any kind of guide.
But I can’t convince you (or anyone else) to make it your “job” or your “responsibility” to make FA inviting. All I can say is that I feel it’s my “job” and “responsibility” to make the cause of Fat Rights attractive and accessible to others.
For me, that’s the whole point. It is my preference to find some way to have those “same damn conversations, over and over again.”
I respect anyone that contributes to FA but I reserve the right to not agree with their methods or positions. I’m sorry if my perspective bothers you.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Your perspective doesn’t bother me; why would it?
I’m not saying that FA should be exclusive. I don’t think the whole movement should be.
I’m saying that exclusive forums are useful, and serve a valid purpose.
There’s a place for slowly, painstakingly convincing the “newbies” that they shouldn’t hate fat people, or shouldn’t have themselves if they are fat. That’s incredibly valuable, important work, and I applaud you for doing it. Getting more people on board with FA, even to a limited extent, is obviously an important part of bringing the revolution.
I’m not a fan of blogs or forums that expect the commenter to have a vast fount of theoretical knowledge before they comment. But I do think there’s an important place for blogs that don’t allow obvious fat hate.
It’s wonderful that there a person can go and never, never, feel that they are being judged or questioned for their fatness. Creating such a space is, in and of itself, a radical and subversive act, even if doesn’t necessarily bring new people into the movement.
I think a lot of the misunderstandings could be avoided if, as you say, these sites were clearer about their expectations. Shakesville is pretty good about this, as I recall.
The reason I think this is important, and the reason I continue to annoy bloggers in both camps with my comments, is that I really, really think sites and more “exclusive” forums are naturally complementary, not antagonistic. I wish people on both sides could have a greater appreciation for each others’ work.
Simone -
“I wish people on both sides could have a greater appreciation for each others’ work.”
Your absolutely right. Maybe that part of my post wasn’t clear enough. I am trying to work past this “they suck because they rejected me” mentality. I don’t want to be angry at the movement. I don’t think that feeling is productive.
I desperately wish I had the nature of a mediator and could surf the political lines of FA in a way that brought us all together. But that’s not my talent. Instead, I’m good at speaking my mind and explaining things.
I’m not AGAINST safe spaces. When the rules are clear and the FAQ’s are written, I think your right. They can be a hugely important part of an individuals FA journey becasue they offer community.
But I do, clearly, wish there were more places in the online FA community aimed at being inclusive and educating. My opinion is that most FA blogs and online communities act in an exclusive way. Because that was my experience over the last five years.
I don’t want you to feel that you “annoy” with your comments here. FFF is intended to be an inclusive place. Thank your for re-explaining the points of your position. It does sound like we are closer to agreement than not.
Thanks for your reply! I’m sorry if my comments seem to be beating a dead horse, but this exchange has been productive for me, because it has made me think about some of the ways that the communities I frequent could be improved. Obviously, I am very attached to the safe-space idea; safe spaces saved my sanity when I was in a pretty dark place with regards to body-image.
But if the “safe spaces” that are I think are so valuable for me are alienating dedicated, insightful, passionate activists, then something isn’t right.
I think you’re right that more people should be taking the approach of the fierce fatties, and educating those outside the movement. But for those sites that continue to focus as more exclusive spaces, this conversation has made me think of some ways in which they might improve.
Also, I think some people are already doing these things, to varying degrees. Lesley at Fatshionista, Shannon at Nudemuse (Atchka’s female name twin!), and the ladies of Big Fat Deal both strike an excellent balance, in my opinion, between accepting a variety of perspectives and putting haters in their place.
In my ideal world, a “safe space” would…
(1) As we’ve both said already, make the rules painfully clear.
(2) Unless a comment is obviously hateful, assume good faith.
(3) I’m really bad at this one myself, but avoid flame wars! This is part of the Racialicious comment policy which I really admire. To paraphrase from the policy there, by the time a thread has descended into two comments trying to excoriate each other, it has almost invariably turned into crap.
(4) Avoid the “That’s not real FA!” line of attack. Respond to problematic comments with statements like “That comment isn’t really appropriate for this thread,” or “That comment violates rule 17 of our comment policy,” or “We do not tolerate diet talk/ablist language/whatever on this blog.” Everyone can, and should, set the rules for their own blog; but we need to acknowledge that in doing so, we are not setting the rules for FA as a whole.
Anyway, thanks so much for a really interesting conversation about all this. I’m looking forward to reading your posts in the future!
You know, I don’t think it’s just limited to the activist set.
There seems to be a real attitude on the interwebz of ridiculing the n00b. It’s like one of the 10 commandments of of internet use. Thou shalt never be a n00b, but if thou is, thou must keep quiet about it until thy can comfortably belittle n00bs thyself.
I don’t get it. Everyone has to learn, to discuss, to find their place in everything. We are ALL n00bs at some point in our life. Repeatedly throughout our lives. Sneering at someone newer than you doesn’t make you look all edgy and cool - it makes you look like a douche, you know?