Dark Horse —
Ya know what? I’m gonna do it.
I’m gonna just come out and be the Defender of Dieters.
To have one of the Founding Mothers of Fat Acceptance label me as such was a pretty harsh blow. It kinda hurt. I mean, fuck, Marilyn, this post was intended to celebrate your openness and inclusion of all Fat Acceptance advocates, regardless of weight or personal experience.
I don’t know where I disregarded your positions or “describe[d] that non-communication in violent terms.” I’ve sent you a private email and I hope for clarification because it was never my intention for this post to be anything other than gushing fanboy thank you for speaking to me on Friday.
Of course, this wouldn’t be the first Homage Gone Wrong I’ve written, so I shouldn’t be all that surprised.
I guess I should rethink that Roast of President Obama I’ve been organizing.
In any case, I initially took the Defender of Dieters as an insult. But now that I think about it, I’m going to go ahead and bear that standard.
Why?
Because I’m not a defender of diets.
What is a dieter?
First and foremost, a dieter is a human being who is living The Fantasy of Being Thin. Their self-worth is so tied up in the number on the scale, that they are willing to attempt and fail scheme after scheme after scheme in order to reclaim the self-confidence that should naturally flow from each one of us.
A dieter may be a person who does not understand the impact weight cycling has on our bodies (PDF) or thinness and health are not synonymous. A dieter may be a person who has not heard that you can be healthy at any size by making healthy lifestyle choices, which may not result in weight loss. A dieter may be a person who needs to be told that her or his value or beauty or sex appeal or worthiness is not dependent upon how successful they are at counting calories.
In short, a dieter is exactly who we should be inviting into Fat Acceptance.
To further explain, we should look at what a non-dieter is.
A non-dieter may be a person who has tried and tried and tried to lose weight and has finally given up out of frustration or desperation. A non-dieter may be a person who has zero interest in restricting him or herself to live up to some arbitrary social ideal. A non-dieter may be a person who intuitively understands the tenets of HAES without realizing there is a significant body of research substantiating the health claims of its proponents.
A non-dieter will most likely hear our message and say, “Oh yeah, of course. I knew that all along.”
In other words, a non-dieter may be the figurative choir to which we are preaching.
Apparently, a non-dieter is not a threat to Fat Acceptance, but a dieter is. My question is, what is the threat? What are we afraid that these insidious weight loss adherents are going to do? Change Fat Acceptance? Make us change our position on dieting? Convert Fat Acceptance advocates into self-doubting diet-protegees?
And how do propose to deal with someone completely new to Fat Acceptance who is on a diet right now? A person who reads the powerful messages on the fatosphere and thinks, “Wow, this is incredible and I completely support what they’re doing, but I’m not quite ready to live my life as a fatty.” What do we do with the Tina’s of the world who say, “I want to be healthy, just not at this size”?
Do we say, “I’m sorry, but if you’re dieting, you can’t join us”? Do we tell them, “Come back once you’ve read our literature and are ready to stop dieting”?
I say no.
I say that we tell them, “Hey, we’ve been there. We understand. Welcome, come in, take your time and learn what we have to offer. If you have questions, ask. If you have doubts, express them.”
As I’ve said before, Fat Acceptance is not a switch you flip. Fat Acceptance isn’t a club for converts. Fat Acceptance isn’t either/or.
Fat Acceptance is a philosophy of living that welcomes diet culture refugees in from the cold, frigid, confusing world of weight loss. We do not expect blind acceptance. We do not tell newcomers to sit quietly in the back of the room and observe the “real” Fat Acceptance advocates. We do not discourage challenges to our way of thinking, unless, of course, you aren’t confident enough in that way of thinking to patiently explain and defend yourself.
That, to me, is what Fat Acceptance should be about.
Yes, I am a Defender of Dieters.
I defend their right to bodily autonomy, to choose a foolish path until reality sets in, to make mistakes and learn why they are mistakes. I defend their right to learn at their own pace, to slowly shed the social millstones of conformity, to assimilate our beliefs in a way that is comfortable for them. I defend their right to be wrong, their struggle to understand, their yearning for truth in the midst of confusion.
I refuse to be pressured into ignoring dieters or treating them as second-tier advocates, less worthy of respect, less welcome in our home. I will not demand that a dieter stop dieting before they begin their journey to self-acceptance. I do not believe that the first step of Fat Acceptance is the end of dieting.
For some people it may be the first step, for others abandoning weight loss ambitions may take months or years or, hell, never. But that is not a decision that I can make for them. I can only provide them with the information and the tools to make that decision when it is right for that individual person.
So, maybe we’re not Fat Acceptance material. Maybe we don’t understand what Fat Acceptance is really about. Maybe, as Elizebeth said, we’re just the bastard children of the FA movement. But we will not be cowed into abandoning our belief that Fat Acceptance is for all people, regardless of where they stand on the path to self-acceptance.
You keep preaching to the choir because we’re taking our message into the streets.
fiercefatties
dufmanno
vesta44
JeninCanada
atchka
erylin
lexiedi
joannadeadwinter
dr deah
shaunta
roundgirlrocks
hlkolaya
lifeonfats
bronwenofhindscroft
osufem
onefabulousmamaistheshiznet
smokindeist
showmediabetes
drpattiethomas
atchka -
Hell ya, brother man!
Right on, sister woman.
Peace,
Shannon
I think Fat Acceptance as a journey is something that so few people are willing to admit. It’s WORK, people, to shed the expectations of society that are drilled into us from birth.
It’s not so easy to just say. Hey, you know what? This is silly and I am not conforming to those thoughts and feelings anymore.
Every day is a struggle to cast off what “others” have been telling us, and to have other “others” on the other side of the issue tell us we aren’t casting those thoughts and feelings off correctly is very disheartening.
So GO US! FFF! WOO HOO!
It is weird how FA people seem to grasp how deeply ingrained social expectations are, yet they seem to think that shedding them is easy. Or, if not easy, that the process should occur “out of sight, out of mind.”
I think that is so very wrong. If you’re struggling with it, we NEED to be that resource to help work your way through, to help battle the doubts and to understand the true costs. Shouldn’t that be our job?
So, yeah, I believe we’re doing it right. I believe we’re advocating in the way that is most needed in this movement. They’ll catch up to us eventually.
Peace,
Shannon
Great post!
PS. I didn’t even know who Ms.Wann was & now I don’t want to know.
I would advise against writing off Marilyn Wann, based on this one incident. In many ways, she is a brilliant and wonderful advocate for fat acceptance.
The Fat-o-sphere, for reasons that escape me, is continuously plagued by drama. If you dismiss everyone who has had a tiff with someone you respect, there’s a good chance that you’ll end up dismissing everyone.
Personally, I deal with this by being a sort of Fat Acceptance Switzerland. I continue to read multiple blogs whose authors clearly can’t stand each other, and I often find that I get something unique from both perspectives.
Given what I know about both Shannon and Marilyn, I am studiously not taking sides in this particular dispute.
Simone,
I agree completely with you and wouldn’t expect anything less. I still read blogs whose overall philosophy I disagree with (which is how I found Red No. 3′s post about his “never calling out” a dieter). These little differences mean nothing compared to all the similarities we share.
I hadn’t intended to sound as though I was “writing off” Marilyn. If anything, I’m writing off any potential collaboration with her since she has pretty much dismissed me. I still respect her work and I absolutely adored her lecture on fighting fat fear. I’m mainly frustrated that she couldn’t come to me privately and say, “Hey, I have a problem with what you said about me” because if I misinterpreted her, I would not allow that to stand. I recognize my flaws and mistakes, and am more than willing to correct myself (as I’ve demonstrated in the past).
Also, I’m still confused what exactly we’re supposed to keep the dieters out of in FA. Are we not supposed to read their blogs? Have dialogue with them? Allow them to blog on Fat Acceptance? Recognize them as allies? What exactly are they proposing we do about dieters in Fat Acceptance? Shun them?
I just can’t make it any clearer that we don’t promote dieting, we don’t want to hear about others’ dieting efforts, we don’t thinking dieting itself has a place in FA, but we DO want to invite them to explore Fat Acceptance. What is the harm in this?
Peace,
Shannon
Shannon, I apologize in advance for the long, skinny comment.
I did not think you were writing off Marilyn Wann-although at this point, I would completely understand if you were. My comment was directed at Karen above, and at all of us who aren’t directly involved in the dispute. If the rest of us start dividing ourselves up into “Team Shannon” and “Team Marilyn,” everybody loses.
Besides, without a full transcript of the conversation, I frankly have no idea which team would better represent my views-and I have a gut feeling that the answer is probably “neither,” “both,” or “it’s complicated.”
Ah, okay. I read comments from the Dashboard, so I missed the thread. And, now I’m noticing for the first time that it says “In reply to…” at the top, so I should be able to follow better.
I don’t want division. I welcome dissent and I think that, if anything, this is an issue that should draw us together into a deeper discussion.
And I don’t blame you for wanting a transcript. I don’t trust second-hand accounts either. I just wish Marilyn would explain to me how I “misinterpreted” her end of the conversation. Clarification would go a long way!
Peace,
Shannon
Thanks Karen!
Peace,
Shannon
Thank you for making the distinction between a diet and a person who’s ON a diet. This is an important post and I hope everyone reads it right through to the end.
People who are actively dieting are very unlikely to come read anything FA/HAES simply because their mind isn’t there. However, if someone does wander in, that’s an opportunity to show them around and make a space for them. This isn’t a competition; we’re not any better or worse at fat acceptance than the next person on FFF, and coming from diet culture where its’ ALWAYS a competition to see who’s lost the most weight/ate the least calories and/or fat/been on their diet longest/been the most GOOD, fat acceptance should be a haven. If a person continues to diet but is honestly trying to come to terms with FA/HAES, good on them. But if they can’t, they’re free to go their own way as well.
I don’t think someone who is actively still dieting has a place within FA except the one they make for themselves over time. I stand by my original position that anyone who’s pushing dieting or wls onto others doesn’t belong here or in the Fatosphere, but they’re free to choose their OWN path.
It’s a vital distinction and it seems as though some people willfully ignore it. They cannot separate the dieter from the diet. That saddens me.
And you’re right, this isn’t a competition. We’re all on the same damned team! I wish we could start acting like it.
Peace,
Shannon
Thank you. I was just recently confronted with the idea that people who want to lose weight aren’t welcome, and all I could think was: “If there was some button I could push that makes me miraculously love my body as it is and unlearn all the bullshit society taught me about weight within an instant, I would. But since it doesn’t exist, it’s a JOURNEY and a PROCESS, and should I just stay away until that process is 100% finished? That might take years. Do I really want to have anything to do with people/an idea who tell me that I’m unwelcome because I’m human and can’t switch positions in a heartbeat?” I’m glad it’s not everyone.
If you find the magic Self-Love Switch, could you let us know? That will definitely be the easiest path to adding followers.
Peace,
Shannon
Is that like Staples “Easy” Button? Because that would be AWESOME!
The “Easy” self-acceptance button. Coming soon from FierceFatty Industries.
Peace,
Shannon
Another great post! Preaching to the choir isn’t going to add to our numbers, but letting dieters in, and letting them see that it is possible to be fat and healthy, fat and happy, fat and have a life, all without dieting just might (hell, it probably will).
I just had an “aha” moment……..maybe those who are most adamant about keeping dieters out of FA are afraid - afraid that their commitment to FA isn’t as strong as they want it to be and letting dieters in is going to weaken their resolve against ever dieting again? Maybe I don’t know what I’m talking about, but it seems possible to me. Fear is a great motivator for excluding people from all kinds of places, always has been…………….
Thanks Vesta,
It makes me wonder how confident people are in their beliefs when they are worried that dieters will “dilute” the message. If we’re promoting truth, then we won’t be diluted by ANYTHING, it is the people who are new to FA whose current beliefs will be diluted. Whatever the case, fear definitely seems like a motivating factor for some. They seem almost scared of dieters.
Peace,
Shannon
This is a serious question: what do you guys think the old-school FA-er’s are doing to “keep dieters out of FA”?
Certainly, dieters are welcome to frequent most FA sites, and to comment-as long as their comments conform to any restrictions on “diet talk” that may be in place.
In most of the fat-o-sphere, the only real issue is whether dieters can actively preach Fat Acceptance on their own blogs.
Every FA blogger I’ve read who has stated an opinion on the matter has argued agreed that thin people, and even dieters, can be powerful allies to FA, and participate meaningfully in FA spaces.
The question isn’t whether we should exclude dieters. It’s whether we should accept them as possible movement leaders, or simply as allies; as Jedi or as Padawans.
I’m all for dissent within the Fat-o-sphere, but it seems to me that we’re getting dangerously close to creating a Straw Fat Activist here.
I would also like to point out that Jenfu of Big Fat Deal; Heidi of Attack of the Sugar Monster; and even Paul Campos, author of The Obesity Myth have all lost substantial amounts of weight-Jenfu and Heidi through weight loss surgery, Paul through intuitive eating and exercise. And yet, all three have remained active in the body-positive community. If their weight-loss efforts have inspired any backlash, it hasn’t been enough to drive them away. Big Fat Deal is even on Notes from the Fat-o-Sphere.
Simone,
I asked the same question on FB. I recognize the danger of the strawman here, but that’s why I’m not sure what is so “controversial” about what I’m saying. But whatever it was, it was enough to make Marilyn de-friend me and publicly chide me for it.
So, I think you’ve just made my point for me… why are the three activists you mentioned not anathema to Fat Acceptance? They follow protocol: no diet talk, no diet promotion. That’s essentially what I’m saying also.
Damn! I wish Marilyn would read this!
Peace,
Shannon
But those three aren’t actively dieting NOW, while they’re writing as a part of the fatosphere. That’s the big difference, I think. If you’re blogging and a part of the fatosphere, you can’t be writing about your current diet, except maybe as a part of how you’re learning how it’s not working/doesn’t work for you and it’s a part of a larger HAES journey.
Jen, I think the distinction between current dieting and blogging about dieting is an important one. I still don’t care if a person is dieting now. I think that people are intellectually capable of understanding the arguments and advancing Fat Acceptance, even while they are mired in their own low tide of self-acceptance. Fat Acceptance is intellectual and the journey to self-acceptance is emotional. Until you break that self-doubt and self-loathing, you can be sort of neurotic response to all of this information. I think that talking through that struggle, that dissonance, can be valuable for the potential dieter/Fat Acceptance advocate, as well as to the community as a whole.
I don’t feel like we should hide our self-doubt or our struggle to accept our bodies as is. And part of that struggle is going back to dieting. That’s why the FFFFeed allows bloggers who talk about their dieting issues, but outside of the Fat Acceptance and Body Positive categories. A person who has struggled with this can leave a record of how she/he worked through it and maybe it can help other potential Fat Acceptors navigate that journey as well.
So long as they aren’t encouraging others to diet or pushing the latest fad, I think they should be welcome.
Peace,
Shannon
Well… actually, I see a lot less of this in the past few months. Someone out there kind of got the idea that body acceptance means accepting ALL bodies, and there’s a lot less “better / worse” kind of language out there now, re: “Real women have curves”, etc.
There was a lot of writing about it, and, honestly, I think some real strides have been made in that direction.
But, even, say, 5 months ago, I saw a lot of posts on a lot of blogs that would imply or actually come right out and say that people like me (who actively make food decisions based on an attempt to maintain a certain weight) all have eating disorders and anyone who would limit their food intake based on calories or what have you was harming themselves (the subtext being that my behavior is “bad” and I ought to be ASHAMED!)
Grant, I haven’t seen as much of this lately, and I think that might just be because of discussions and posts like this one, where people can talk about “dieters” as PEOPLE, not DIETS.
“Grant, I haven’t seen as much of this lately, and I think that might just be because of discussions and posts like this one, where people can talk about “dieters” as PEOPLE, not DIETS.”
This is exactly it.
When people refer to fatties as THE OBESE, it depersonalizes us, just like refering to people who are dieting as DIETERS. We are all much more than the state of our fatness or lack thereof, and we all deserve to have our voices heard as PEOPLE.
That said, I believe that diet evangelism has no place in the fatosphere, but I also believe that people who still believe in dieting can be fat accepting, even though they may not have reached that point for themselves. I mean, isn’t the goal of fat activism to get the general public - not just us fatties - to be fat accepting?
An ancient Chinese proverb that I read 30+ years ago, and really took to heart:
“I often find that I try to explain the stars to blind men. I also occasionally play the lyre for deaf people.”
nuf said!
But what does he do for men without olfactory senses?
Peace,
Shannon
Maybe he cooks for them! Have you noticed how when your nose is plugged up, everything tastes like DESPAIR??
Great post Shannon. You aren’t the first person to have a run in with Ms Wann and you won’t be the last. It takes all types to make up this world and I totally see where you are coming from in being the defender of dieters (not of diets). I think you need a tshirt that has a superman like shield on it with Defender of Dieters in big letters : )
Thanks Bri. I appreciate the reassurance, and today I received confirmation that something’s rotten in the state of Denmark. I’ll be in touch.
I think your post about your own body struggles is right in line with what we’re talking about. Not that you’re dieting, but there’s no such thing as a perfect Fat Acceptor. We all struggle with body image and Fat Acceptance should be a rock on which you can depend, not a club in which you gain access.
And forget the t-shirt, I’m wearing spandex and a cape today.
Peace,
Shannon
I try (and occasionally fail) to approach it the same way I do a lot of things — I might not agree with what you’re saying/doing, but I’ll defend your right to say/do it, as long as you aren’t attempting to force people to be your yes men or do exactly what you are doing.
Trivial example, a game that my best friend and I both play. I think that some of the actions she is taking in the game, while they aren’t cheating at all, are a little mean at best and borderline greedy, self centered, and generally jerktastic. And I tell her that all the time… even at the same time as I am defending her right to be a greedy self centered jerk towards the other players if she wants. Just like it is their right to have nothing to do with her because of it.
Dieters and dieting are a lot the same in FA for me… dieters welcome, but check your diet talk at the door. In other words they are free to abuse themselves that way if they want, and while I will definitely tell them if asked exactly what I think about what they’re doing, as far as I’m concerned they’re still welcome to read and participate and I will defend their right to do so as best I can. As long as they aren’t attempting to convert anyone back to worship on the altar of the cult of thin, we’re all good.
Erin,
Great example. Weight loss evangelism is not welcome, but those who are struggling to escape the cult of thin are most definitely welcome. Challenge our assumptions, point out where we’re full of crap, but don’t tell us how you lost those last 15 pounds. We don’t care!
Peace,
Shannon
I think that as a person who does (ugh, I hate ALL the words that are available for describing my lifestyle that includes taking steps to remain at the current weight I weigh) “control my food intake”, but who also wholeheartedly embraces FA and FA concepts, it’s a tough balance to maintain.
Of course, I consider any description of my lifestyle as more of a warning and an object lesson in “would you really want to do this if this is what it takes?” rather than any kind of guide or advice in what other people should be doing.
But still, the often repeated message that my existence is anathema to the overall FA movement can be disheartening at times.
Statistical Freak -
For a while I’ve been trying to find a way to say this..I worry sometimes that all my anti-dieting rhetoric might make you (Statistical Freak) feel marginalized. The suck of this is I’m not sure there is anything I can do about it, becasue I’m expressing my honest opinion, but I still feel bad about the possibility of that I’m making you feel bad. (Think it’s a girl thing. Damned empathy.)
I may choose not to diet for myself but I really believe the choice another person makes about dieting is NONE OF MY DAMN BUSINESS. One of my little quotes is, “If you insist on believing fat or health is a choice, it’s my choice to make.”
I want people to have the information about what science really says about dieting becasue I don’t feel the public is being given the opportunity to be informed health consumers…but (and this is just my perspective) I don’t think dieting is wrong. I think it’s a choice.
Some of my favorite people smoke and drink and I don’t get in their face about how bad it is for them. I kinda assume they already know the possible health consequences of their their choices. But I can’t say that I feel the rest of the world is informed about dieting, thus I write about it a lot.
I may be making a big deal about something small…but it’s been on my mind. I am so grateful that you’re here with us as a part of FFF…and it makes me heartsick at the idea that we might ever make you feel “disheartened.” (I’m pretty sure that last sentence was not aimed at FFF but the sentiments is still the same.)
It’s difficult enough to make it through this life without feeling the need to conform to someone else’s idea of who you should be and how you should be and when you should be that prescribed way.
I feel like I’ve been saying this a lot lately, but it bears repeating:
The world won’t become a better place until we are first able to accept others as-is and learn to be accepted as-is.
That goes for all kinds of people, not fatties.
And as far as being an “ally,” every person, every group, every movement needs allies.
Kudos to you for standing your ground. There are a whole lotta ways to be in this great big world, good for you for owning your way.
Thanks Rhi. This is an as-is sort of blog. We don’t expect anyone to change because of what they read here… participate and take away what you need. That’s it.
And I still believe that allies are valuable, especially when a movement is as an underdog like FA is currently.
Welcome!
Peace,
Shannon
Found your blog because we belong to some of the same groups (I think) and have some of the same friends on FB (Iknow, 6 of them). It’s funny cause I just emailed you through FB tonight but somehow ran across your blog after that. I think it’s awesome. Now if dipshit here could figure out on how to subscribe,Help
…Lisa
For some reason, FB won’t let me respond to you. I was going to say that the best way to be MeMe Roth’s worst nightmare is to not be a gullible moron.
Have you heard the interview I did with her a while back? It’s quite a trip.
And welcome!
Peace,
Shannon
Ok…I had to reread your blog again, go back to unfriend a certain mutual former friend of yours, and this is why I unfriended tonight, who I still believe is the fabulous Marilyn Wann…
I am a size promoting, quiet fat activist, anti dieting and anti-wls chick. When I received an invitation from a mutual friend, about becoming friends with her,several weeks ago, because I have in my FB profile that I hope to launch a company providing Bariatric Coaching, I got interrogated before she would accept me to make sure I wasn’t publically advocating anyway shape or form weight loss, which at the time I didn’t necessarily agree with totally but I still loved and love her work, and I also didn’t mention that I am working on losing weight for health reasons. I rarely comment on my personal life on FB or my passions, I save for the groups I belong to… My personal preference…
But it has bothered me and this is why after reading your blog and then coming back and reading the responses, I did what I did and I thank you.
I don’t believe we can have Fat Acceptance until we eradicate Sizism. It shouldn’t be anymore acceptable, to call someone a skinny bitch then it is to be called a fat bitch. If we can’t embrace anyone who wants to further size acceptance no matter what they weigh, for someone who is so passionate, she is getting in her own way of her message and possibly the health of her admirers and of the cause, because sometimes people of size have to lose weight for their own best health.
I think somehow I felt somewhere I had to censor what I said in the mutual groups she and I belonged to and I am not doing that for no one. But most of all as I said before what she did with you and with others for similar reasons, is getting in the way of her message and could harm the health of her followers. Thank you for giving me the balls to be able to say that publically and privately articulate that to myself tonight. Peace, Lisa
p.s. wordy ass genius here figured out on how to subscribe to your blog….
Lisa, I want to welcome you here to FFF. Your body is your business and I, for one, won’t shun you nor call you out for your decision.
Lisa, so long as you aren’t encouraging others to lose weight here, you are welcome. What you do in your personal life is your choice. We see no reason to interrogate everyone who is exploring Fat Acceptance or to issue purity tests of any kind. It is only what you bring to the table, what you offer up in discussion, that will be judged as appropriate or inappropriate.
A person’s health is personal. And though we may have concerns for the health of a friend or stranger, we must be sure that our advice and our help is wanted and not just our own personal crusade. We are accepting of all sizes here, and even had a guest post from Luxe of Fuck Yeah Skinny Chicks a while back.
Welcome and I look forward to your contributions.
Peace,
Shannon
You’re attacking a straw man.
I wish you’d present your ideas as theses. Arguments.
I like reading here but there seems to be to highlight and encourage in-fighting and persona drama.
Hello, Jen,
I’ve witnessed the slap down on other FA blogs that occurs when a commenter would mention dieting. (and I don’t mean an obvious fat-hating troll) Perhaps there are so many trolling comments to delete that moderators have high levels of frustration and the new, curious commenters suffer.
Jen,
This is no strawman. This is based on an actual discussion I’ve been having with Marilyn Wann, one of the most influential Fat Acceptance advocates out there. From what we’ve discussed she does not think that Fat Acceptance should include anyone who has intentionally lost weight or plans to do so. She is not the only one. There is another FA blogger, Red No. 3, who also promotes this extreme version of Fat Acceptance.
In this comment to Heidi’s SP guest post regarding her WLS, bSTU (Red No. 3) wrote the following: “People who want to lose weight aren’t represented by Fat Acceptance. If they want to offer support, it cannot by with the stipulation that we affirm their choices to lose weight. That’s not an offer of support. Its an attack on everything we believe. Resisting that is not ideological purity, its standing for *something*… Those people can’t feel perfectly safe in fat acceptance. Thats not what FA is there for. Its there to challenge weight loss culture and it needs to keep doing that. A dieter needs to accept THAT and if they can’t we need to recognize that its their problem.”
I’m responding to these attitudes and they are not strawmen.
Peace,
Shannon
I wrote my comment last night when I was tired, so apologies for having it sound nonsensical.
While I appreciate your desire for a “big tent” as I assume that’s part of the intent behind these messages, I really think you and other bloggers have more in commonalities ideologically than you have differences.
Not to say you need to bite your tongue-not what I’m advocating-but these ideas you have are not talked about in the context of the ideas themselves, they’re often framed in a She/He Said This Over There And Let Me Tell You Why That’s Wrong kinda way. That method tends to fracture, split, and stir up dissent in a movement rather than moving it to thoughtful thinking while remaining a group.
Just my 0.02
Jen,
I understand where you’re coming from. The only reason I’ve discussed specific people is because my original post was about a conversation I had with Marilyn Wann. I had intended it to be a post about how grateful I was that she seemed to be a “big tent” advocate as well, but then she lashed out at me and called me a “Defender of Dieters” and here we are now.
But the thing is, if I had discussed this without reference to “She/He said” then I would be accused of constructing a straw man argument and asked to point to examples. I’m not sure how else I could point out that some people in the movement want to “exclude” dieters (although I still don’t understand how that is even possible… like Vesta said, what keeps a dieter from just keeping mum?). Someone pointed out that Paul Campos lost some weight, as did Linda Bacon… okay, how do we prove they didn’t intend to lose weight due to body image issues?
I see this attitude occassionally and it baffles me. What do they propose to do about dieters apart from telling them they are unwelcome? This was just my attempt to draw as big a circle as I can for people to discover Fat Acceptance.
Also, I’ve done plenty to fracture, split and stir up dissent in Fat Acceptance without much effort, yet we’re still here, still fighting for the same cause. Fat Acceptance is not brittle and fragile, and it will withstand dissent. We agree on 95% of the issues and that measly (yet contentious) 5% is not going to destroy the movement.
Finally, as Elizebeth said, we welcome opposing viewpoints always. If you disagree with something we’ve written, we encourage you to speak up, whether in a comment or a guest post. Either way, we welcome you and will not treat you hostilely just because you disagree. This is a robust community that enjoys getting muddy together.
Peace,
Shannon
Jen -
While your are correct that this is “persona drama” because atchka and others of us here have been talking about feeling butt hurt by the position of some in FA. And perhaps we are particicpating or even encouraging “infighting” by talking about our problems with other parts of FA.
But I’m not sure how this is a straw man argument. I don’t see us attacking the original position by arguing unrelated points. I think the attack is pretty straight forward.
Going back to my original point, I don’t like being around people that talk shit about others in an endless loop without any attempt to be balanced or fair. So I totally get where your saying, “I wish you’d present your ideas as theses. Arguments.”
There isn’t a lot of defending the position of Marilyn Wann in this thread. And I’m sure the comments so far have not created an environment welcoming for someone to defend her position.
I’d welcome a guest post from someone that supported the “no dieting talk or even reference to dieting in FA” position…becasue I believe we should attempt to see issues from more than one side.
It’s hard for me to play devils advocate when it comes to that position becasue I so fiercely believe in bodily autonomy. But I hope you know that we respect your right to disagree with any or all of what’s been said here.
As I’ve said before, most of the big names in the fatosphere do not have a strong “no dieters” policy.
In fact, the distinction between rejecting dieters and rejecting dieting has been amply discussed (in exactly those terms) on both The Rotund and Shapley Prose. In both places, the consensus was that individuals who were dieting couldn’t be fat activists, per se, but that they could be welcome and important allies.
This may not be a consensus you agree with, but it’s not nearly as harsh as some of the comments on this thread suggest.
The FFF-against-the-world tone of this post is understandable, but ultimately, it’s not productive.
Simone Lovelace -
While I believe that we should try to be balance and fair by giving voice to more than one side of the story…I don’t believe that we should censor ourselves on certain topics becasue talking about our feeling or opinions causes strife.
Fair enough. I’m not saying you should censor yourselves, if you feel that what you are saying is true.
I do think that this post, and some of the ensuing discussions, paints old-school FA in an unnecessarily negative light.
The “anti-diet/pro-dieters” position is not something that the FFF community invented.
While Marilyn Wann might refuse to associate with dieters, her behavior is not representative of all-or even most-fact activism before FFF.
I think we need to keep that in mind.
I don’t think for a minute that speaking your truth is unnecessarily divisive. But I do think there is a real danger that the FFF community could be doing a better job of giving their predecessors-and even their opponents-credit where credit is due. This, and nothing else, is what I consider to be unproductive here.
Jen - We’re trying to remove the “zie said” from the conversation, but it’s difficult to do when an icon of FA publicly attacks one of our founders because he supports the inclusion of dieters (not diets) in FA. When that icon makes statements, hopefully, zie is prepared to stand by those statements and take the fallout from them, if any.
The thing is, too many people in FA can’t (or won’t) separate dieters from their diets. They see letting dieters into FA as diluting the message of FA, even though there are probably a shitload of dieters already in FA that just don’t talk about their diets, precisely because they don’t want to be kicked out of FA. They need FA but aren’t quite ready to give up on dieting yet, or have reasons for dieting that no one knows (and are no one’s business). Having a sane and rational discussion about dieters in FA isn’t possible with those who are hard-core absolutists - they refuse to see reason and think that only people who have given up on dieting for weight loss should be allowed membership. They seem to prefer preaching to the choir, instead of converting dieters, one at a time, to our way of thinking/living/being. Seems rather short-sighted to me, and could be why FA has taken so long to advance as far as it has.
As I explained to Shannon, the community sets its boundaries, I set my boundaries, and he sets his boundaries.
I am not the gatekeeper of fat pride community. I have not, in any communication with Shannon, made any statement about where the community’s boundary is.
I have a personal boundary related to weight-loss goals. I do not in any way want to promote weight-loss goals. I do not want people who connect with me to encounter weight-loss goals. If someone has a weight-loss goal, I prefer not to publicly affiliate with that person. (Lisa, thanks for respecting my personal boundary by unfriending me!) Also, to the best of my ability, I don’t socialize with people who have weight-loss goals. I do not work with people as colleagues if they have weight-loss goals.
I’m not fragile. I find weight-loss goals to be wholly unpleasant. (It doesn’t matter to me if people lose weight or not, it’s their thinking that concerns me.)
I talk with all sorts of people about ending weight-based oppression and about the Health At Every Size approach. I give talks all over the U.S. (and sometimes in other countries). I do media interviews. I participate in all sorts of online and in-person fat pride community spaces. This is my full-time, largely unpaid occupation, and has been since 1994. In every situation, I make a distinction between my own personal boundaries regarding weight-loss goals and the boundaries in place wherever I am. I think that I am respectful and effective when I interact with people who have weight-loss goals in these settings.
In setting my personal boundary, it does not matter to me what anyone weighs. It does not matter to me if someone’s weight has changed or is changing. It matters to me how people think about weight and weight change, their own or others’.
I find it interesting that in a community that is defined in large part by its opposition to weight-loss goals, concern for the needs and feelings of people who have weight-loss goals is so often talked about and prioritized over concern for the needs and feelings of people who prefer not to interact with weight-loss goals. I imagine this fact is simply part of the historical moment we’re in.
In my experience, some people who invest in weight-loss goals and participate in fat pride community are in process of shedding that investment. I find it exciting and worthwhile to interact with such people. Other people are not changing — their chosen position seeks both fat pride and weight loss. I have also known many longtime fat activists who adopt weight-loss goals, who undergo various surgical interruptions of their otherwise healthy digestive tracts, and who continue to participate in fat pride community and who say they are fat activists.
During our phone conversation, Shannon, you kindly asked to interview me. I explained my personal boundary about weight-loss goals. You said your work wasn’t about weight-loss goals and then you described how you actively welcome people with weight-loss goals. By that point, it had been a long and contentious conversation and you had not seemed to recognize the significant distinctions between your position and mine on other topics, so I just ended the conversation and planned to reconsider doing an interview. Then you posted a long and in your view laudatory post about how I support things I actually disagree with and you bragged on my Facebook profile about “ripping me to shreds.”
I wish all of you well in your fat-lib efforts, but I have no interest in this level of needless drama.
First of all, Marilyn, regarding our phone call, it was neither long nor contentious in my view. The only thing we disagreed on was the validity of the term “ally.” The rest of the time we talked about “reverse trolling” and how I was going after Facebook. You said it was a great idea to test their policies instead of taking them at their word. We only spoke for about 20 minutes (not even enough time for me to get on the highway). We didn’t really talk about anything all that controversial and we didn’t really even talk that long. Also, I asked you at the very end of the conversation whether you wanted to do an interview and you stated that you would do so only if I wasn’t promoting dieting. I explained that I do not do so and that I whole-heartedly support HAES as a means of improving health. You said, “Okay” and agreed to do an interview in the near future. Now, when and how you decided to “reconsider” the interview was not when you ended the conversation, because it was at the end that you finally said that you were comfortable doing so.
Also, on Facebook, when I posted that note about ripping you to shreds, I posted a winking smiling face at the end. It was a joke. And after you respond so harshly, I immediately sent you a private email asking for clarification on what I said that was so “violent” and for clarification on what exactly your view on dieters is. I explained that I believed that a person at the beginning of their Fat Acceptance journey might still be in the midst of shedding their weight loss mentality and that being hostile to anyone with a weight loss goal might be counter-productive. You sent me a brief response: “I don’t trust you not to misunderstand and misuse any words I might offer.”
Then when I sent a followup explaining that two of very popular, very influential and very effective FA bloggers have undergone WLS and asking what you would “do” about them, you responded “Thanks for the warning.” What warning? A warning is something given in advance of a threat. It seems to me that you feel threatened by those who have engaged in weight loss. These two people have made a positive impact on the Fat Acceptance community. Would you reject them? Do you think they are inadequate Fat Activists?
You’ve just said yourself that some people are invested in weight-loss goals and participate in fat pride, while shedding that investment. You said you find it “exciting and worthwhile” to interact with them. Yet, you say you choose not to affiliate with someone with weight-loss goals. Well, where do you draw the line? What is the difference, in your mind, between a person who is in the midst of shedding those goals and a person who is more vested in weight loss than Fat Acceptance at the moment you meet them? What is the tipping point? And how do *you* know when a person is more vested in FA than weight loss?
See, the sad thing about all of this is that I truly believe that you and I are in agreement. I don’t support dieting in the least. I think that a person who is heavily vested in weight loss may have trouble reconciling the tenets of Fat Acceptance. But I believe it is not my choice to decide whether that person should or shouldn’t be included in our community, whether I should or shouldn’t affiliate with a person based on the status of his or her personal journey of Fat Acceptance. Personally, I believe we should affiliate with ALL people, regardless of what their weight loss goals are because it is the people who currently have those goals who are most in need of our message.
You acknowledge that there is a “shedding” of weight loss goals and culture. Here’s the most important question… if a person is new to Fat Acceptance and they go from heavily vested in weight loss to shedding their weight loss goals, then how do you treat a person who is between the beginning stages (introduction to FA) and the shedding of those goals? A person who is in the midst of learning enough to make shedding those goals a worthwhile pursuit? Why would you base your opinion of that person on where they are in relation to the Fat Acceptance journey? Why would you have such little regard for a person at the start of their Fat Acceptance journey? Aren’t these the people we should be nurturing and supporting MOST? Aren’t these the people we should be engaging in most vigorously?
Finally, you took a swipe at Lisa for defriending you for your response to all of this, yet you immediately defriended me for my original post without seeking clarification. You assume malicious intent and have disregarded me despite my position on dieting.
Whatever your personal boundaries are, that’s fine. But when you disparage activists who have genuine lapses of self-doubt or self-loathing, who feel uncomfortable in their bodies despite all that they have logically accepted as fact, who are still impacted by media messaging and comments from family and friends… well, I think that’s completely unnecessary.
If someone tells me they are a Fat Activist, it is not my place to determine whether that claim is valid or not. Why the hell else would they be here if they weren’t sincerely interested in Fat Acceptance? Do you think they’re some kind of secret agent for the diet industry?
NO! They are human being, fallible and frail, who falter from time to time in the pragmatic application of Fat Acceptance. And I refuse to treat them any differently or turn my back on them when they are having a moment of crisis or self-doubt. I wish we could work together on these issues, but since you seem to have thrown me on the trash bin of “supposed” Fat Activists, I guess this is asking too much.
Peace,
Shannon
Nice, Shannon. You reassure me that whatever I write to you is private and then you quote it publicly. (Not that I regret anything I’ve written or would change a word.) Just one more red flag among the half-dozen that went up for me within a day or two of starting to interact with you. (BTW, putting a smiley face on a statement doesn’t make it funny or okay.)
If Lisa is engaged in weight-loss goals, then I’m glad she unfriended me because I don’t link publicly with people who have weight-loss goals. I don’t want to be the reason that someone in my Facebook friend network comes across whatever weight-loss content she might post.
If people are blogging positively about weight-loss surgery, I prefer being alerted (or warned) about that fact so I can avoid their writing.
I don’t try to read people’s minds, I take people at their word. If people say they’re interested in shifting from a weight-focused belief system to a weight-neutral belief system, then I’m happy to talk to them about that. If someone tells me they want to lose weight or they want to weigh less or whatever and they’ve already had plenty of exposure to weight-neutral and fat pride and HAES concepts, then I’m not motivated to talk to them because they’re not interested in changing that viewpoint. It would be rude behavior for me to argue with them about their reasons or their beliefs about their weight. It would be a waste of my time.
Anyone who wants to participate in fat pride community can do so. It’s not up to me. I don’t control the community or where people go. I maintain a no-weight-loss talk policy on the fat studies email list. If people talk about weight-loss goals as if they are good or necessary, I ask them not to. I have no say in whether or not people on that list engage in weight-loss goals. I think the benefits of this policy vastly outweigh any possible liabilities.
Shannon, what you exhort me to do I would consider a big, fat waste of my time and also seriously unpleasant. I’m not the kind of person who tries to make people change their position when they don’t want to.
Our phone conversation may have seemed short to you but it seemed very long to me. You and I disagree on how we identify as fat. You and I disagree on whether men are affected by fat oppression. You and I disagree on the concept of “ally.” (I don’t call people allies. I think people of all weights can have intense, personal reasons for wanting to end fat oppression.) You and I disagree on the usefulness and risks of welcoming people into fat pride community who have considered their options and who are not interested in setting aside weight-loss goals.
People can do whatever they like, either in fat pride community or outside of it. They do not require my permission. OBVIOUSLY! They also cannot demand my approval or attention. To paraphrase an African-American college friend, “All I *have* to do is stay fat and die.”
I don’t know if you’ve ever experienced what it’s like to be in a community space where other people (of all sizes!) are not involved in weight-loss goals, where people actively oppose weight-loss goals, where people are working to undo fat oppression in the world and the internalized versions we carry with us, where people are envisioning and creating weight-neutral ways for fat people to pursue health, happiness, mobility, sexuality, purpose, success, friendship, community, and more, where people are truly celebrating weight diversity. It’s a precious and powerful experience. In 15 years, I’ve enjoyed the feeling of being in a place that’s free of fat hate very rarely. And if it were up to you, such spaces would not exist at all.
Marilyn Wann -
While I think there is probably nothing that can be done about the fact that we so clearly disagree on how men, allies, and dieters fit into the Fat Acceptance Movement, I’m really disappointed by your last line.
And if it were up to you, such spaces would not exist at all.
Suggesting that we’re trying to tear down your safe space is not only unfair, it’s kinda petty. While I don’t agree with you on many points, I fiercely support “your side” of the movement becasue one of the mores of our FFF community is that every voice makes us louder.
You support our cause, we support you, PERIOD. That point may make no difference to you but it’s a big deal to me.
Marilyn,
What have I exhorted you to do? Where have I promoted weight loss? Where have I done anything except say that it is your body, you choice? What is so horrendous about a “Dieters welcome, diet talk isn’t” policy? If a person is dieting, but they don’t share any of the details of that private choice, how is that a problem? Also, the two women who had WLS did so after a long a serious discussion. Heidi wrote an incredibly personal account account of her struggle on Shapely Prose, as did Vesta44, one of our bloggers, who underwent the surgery and is now a powerful advocate against it. You are personally determining their worth as allies (regardless of whether there’s an official mechanism for excluding them from the movement) based on whether they’ve had “plenty of exposure” to the concepts of Fat Acceptance. How much is “plenty”? And how do you quantify the doubt that exists whether or not you have been exposed. Maybe you are secure in your self-confidence, but some people struggle THEIR ENTIRE LIVES with body image issues. For you to personally dismiss them as not worth your time or attention is demeaning. Most of them DO NOT talk about those struggles, DO NOT talk about the diets they have engaged in, DO NOT share their doubts and fears because they don’t want to be judged as weak or less-than-adequate activists.
I support a person’s right to have doubts and fears and concerns for their bodies. I also support the community’s anti-diet education and promoting healthy body image and healthy lifestyle through HAES. But what it comes down to is YOUR personal decision about YOUR body. So long as you don’t share all the details of your diets, then we’re cool. But if you want to talk about how you struggle with your self-image, how you struggle with your weight, I WILL LISTEN. Because, to me, this movement is about helping people come to terms with their bodies, come to peace with their bodies, wherever they are. I do not expect perfection, I do not expect people to have the confidence in their bodies that I do. That is unfair and it is unnecessary to spread the fat positive messages that we need to.
And yes, I DO kno what it is like to create weight-neutral ways for fat people to pursue health, happiness, mobility, sexuality, purpose, success, friendship, community, and more, because that’s what we do, every fucking day here on Fierce, Freethinking Fatties. This is your first visit to our site and if you had taken the time to read what we write, to understand how similar our beliefs REALLY are (and not this imaginary enemy you’ve twisted me into), then you would see that.
Like Elizebeth said, so long as we are fighting for the same cause, I will support you and your effort and your educational abilities. But after this exchange, I lack the respect and awe I had for you going into the conversation on Friday. If we were having a horrendous exchange, I guess my fucked up phone prevented me from hearing it because when I got home I gushed to my wife about what a great conversation we had.
I would love to discuss these topics further, but I’m afraid this is becoming a destructive conversation for Fat Acceptance and it will be best for us to go our separate ways.
Until we meet again.
Peace,
Shannon
Also. Given all of the ways I discovered that we disagree and given that you seemed intent on insisting that we agreed when we did not (by disregarding my reasons and my positions), I didn’t bother at the end of the phone call going over yet another disagreement re an interview. I just planned not to do one, if you got around to it.
First of all, I am very anti-dieting, anti-wls, size acceptance promoting and fat acceptance promoting person. I have had in my past history eating disorders, major complications from a gastric bypass(which I am currently in the hospital for the 12th time since my surgery,3 times in the last 6 weeks) I am probably going to die from the complications before I can do any advocacy because I am being so mismedically managed I have no quality of life, and the problems I have will sooner then later kill me and I will die a painful death but not a long one, thank god.
No where do I advocate for anyone to lose weight I just disagree with the exclusion of those who are losing weight from being accepted in the FA movement. I don’t believe weight loss talk is appropriate in forums like these, and I approach my life now with a very HAES approach. I will never diet again. I like to exercise which I wouldn’t normally bring up, I eat what I want with balance and move a lot because I have unmanageble pain and if I didn’t I would go crazy.Because I have Fibromyalgia and Chronic Pain Syndrome, that is why I am doing something to lose weight has I am so sensitive to it, that it makes my pain levels even worse. This is the first and only time you will ever see me comment in anyway about why or the fact I am losing weight.That is the only reason why I am being so specific. What is going to kill me with my gastric bypass is that I have severe abdominal pain caused by ulcers, If I dont have surgery, I am going to eventually develop a GI bleed and internally bleed to death.This I have been told by doctor. Up until now I was planning on having my gastric bypass reversed, they changed how they are managing me, I am pushing to get discharged, and I am not planning on seeking anymore medical and psychiatric attention, it doesn’t get me anywhere. I hope when I die,s my family and friends systematically sue several systems for failing to help me. I hope that gastric bypasses are eliminated and those who develop complications are treated differently
Marilyn, if you actually take the time to read this, I don’t “get off” on saying I unfriended on FB someone who I admire so much in a movement I have wanted to be a part of who has been so instrumental in getting positive attention in a major way to a message I so strong believe in. I agree that active weight loss talk from anyone doesn’t belong in the fat acceptance movement,but in certain venues like we both belong to People of Size I believe you can actively advocate for Fat Acceptance and trying to eradicate fat phobic activity and sometimes need for health purpoes to lose weight that doesn’t mean I advocate for weight loss or dieting as I have said since the beginning I am very anti-wls and and anti-dieting. I just have had trouble with the exclusion of any group discounting someone’s loyalty to the cause because they need to lose weight and I think that the inclusion of any group of people, thin, people who are trying to lose weight for health reasons but belong to FA boards to talk about fat acceptance and advocacy for that should be welcomed and when I found Shannon’s blog I loved what he had to say about that and how he said it. I feel Marilyn if you read this, the more people no matter if they are losing weight or not, their losing weight doesn’t belong for topic of discussion, you should think though people who want to be a part of the movement shouldn’t have to fear exclusion if what they are doing privately and personally for health reasons, because you dont publically or socially want to be associated with those who are losing weight and I have no idea what you do about associating with people or allowing them to be in your circle if they are thin but want advocate for Fat Acceptance.
I didn’t mean to write a blog on someone else’s blog. I felt I had a right to say why I agree more with what I have seen on FFF and why I felt I had the the right and the need to defend my original responses on this thread… Peace to everyone, Lisa
What a difficult, painful story. I just wanted to lay aside the politics for a minute, and wish you the very best. I am sending positive, healing thoughts your way.
SL
Lisa,
Thank you so much for sharing this painful experience with us. You are always welcome here and I wish you all the best for your health and as long a life as you can enjoy. I will be in contact with you.
Peace,
Shannon
Lisa-
I’m also very sorry you are going through this. Like Simone I’m conjuring up some good vibes to send your way and hope very much you recover.
Simone, I’m responding to this comment here so it’s not a big long noodle of text:
Simone,
If I seem to not be giving credit where credit is due, it isn’t due to my respect for past contributions on the issue. One of my most fundamental flaws as a writer is that I’m not a big reader. I only read a few blogs with any semblance of regularity and I read entries I find on the Fatopshere as they interest me. I did see that on Heidi’s WLS post for SP, Kate was defending Heidi from Brian of Red No. 3 for similar reasons. But I haven’t read any posts that specifically discuss this topic and if they are out there, it’s a matter of negligence as opposed to disrespect.
As far as whether a fat activist can go on a diet… I haven’t brought it up because I don’t want to drag people into this discussion at random, but Bri had a post on her own body confidence struggles and how she still has days she thinks about being thin. Now, if she came out tomorrow and said, “Hey y’all,” (’cause Australians love to say “y’all”) “I’m gonna try and lose 20/50/100 pounds because I think it would make me feel better,” (or whatever reason) would all of her past activism be for naught? And, let’s say that she continued to do the same type of blogging of the same calibre… would she be a “bad” activist?
Or would she be a conflicted human being who can intellectually embrace the subject, while personally struggling to believe it for herself? And, again, what would we *DO* about her as an influential FA blogger? Would we shun her? Would we ask her not to write about this subject?
Again, I’m not suggesting that is what would happen, but the ongoing struggles she speaks of is exactly the mentality I’m defending. The mentality that says, “I believe in what I’m preaching, but part of me is struggling with making it ‘work’ for me.”
I just feel like it’s not our place to decide who is and isn’t allowed to be a “big voice.” The big voices, like Kate and Marianne and Bri are big voices because what they have to say resonates with a significant portion of the Fat Acceptance community. If any one of them were to express a sudden desire to pursue weight loss, then it is incumbent upon their readers to decide whether to continue supporting them. If people lose faith in their ability to examine FA topics with credibility, then it will be reflected in their support.
But that is all based in personal choice, as is Marilyn’s decision not to associate with dieters, which I support wholeheartedly. But when you call me the “Defender of Dieters” and suggest that I’m enabling weight loss somehow, then I’m going to speak my piece.
And once more, if by speaking that piece, I’ve neglected to give credit to previous opinions, I’m genuinely sorry. I’m not trying to steal anyone’s thunder or seem like an originator of these ideas, I’m merely expressing my opinion on the subject at hand.
Peace,
Shannon
Thanks for your reply. I understand that you have the best intentions, and I certainly don’t expect you to keep abreast of everything that’s ever happened in the fat-o-sphere. However, when it comes to these “defining FA” conversations, I think it’s useful to frame the debate in terms of what has come before.
I’m not suggesting you become a scholar of FA history, but 20 minutes of google-fu can teach you a lot about which debates have already happened in the fat-o-sphere, and how they’re been dealt with.
My biggest concern is that dieters might read this post, and the comments, and come to the conclusion that FFF was the only place on the ‘sphere where they would feel welcome. Odds are, that is not the case.
Simone Lovelace -
I swear that I’m not just trying to pick on you. It seems that we disagree on a couple points and I want to clarify my perspective but I understand if you still disagree once I’ve said my peace.
I did a Google search on “fat acceptance” and “diet talk” and what I found were quite a few FA bloggers saying they don’t allow diet talk…and bloggers who admit they diet saying that they’re don’t feel welcome in FA for a variety of reasons.
Lisa’s Life Lesson’s talks about not being a fat acceptance blog becasue, “I will always allow diet talk, food talk, nutrition talk, health talk and other talk that might offend the fat acceptance crowd.”
GLAMGAL81′s talks about Fat acceptance and rejection, “Anyone who disagreed with the political opinions of the more outspoken members of the community, regardless of their relevance to fat or body image, were really not welcome. For a community that prided itself on tolerance, it was disheartening.”
Here’s where my frustration enters in…What I didn’t find was on the FA blogs is a clear definition of what “diet talk” means. My definition of “diet talk” is someone telling me there current diet goals. And it includes a kind of weight loss evangelism. But my impression is that other FA bloggers define diet talk much more broadly, at time including past experiences, present struggles, or even the hint of healthism.
Perhaps, to be fair, I should be asking other FA bloggers to be clearer in their definition of what they mean by “diet talk”…but the other big complaint of people who feel rejected by FA is this impression that any suggestion of a dissenting opinion is an opening for FA bloggers to attack (and that has DEFINITELY been my experience.)
Of course, at the core of my issue with the “no diet talk rule” in FA is how are we supposed to battle something if we don’t talk about it? (But perhaps that is a separate topic of discussion.)
Also, my personal experience, after 5 years of trying to find a place in FA, is that FFF is the only place I really feel welcome.
Maybe there is some well founded truth in what your saying becasue the Fatosphere has gone through some changes over the last 5 years and all the recent posts, like the one at Big Fat Blog, means that the tide is turned so that FA bloggers are trying to be more tolerant and even welcoming to those just starting out on their FA journey.
But I think there is truth in my experience that there are places in the FA world that are just not interested in cultivating or encouraging those in the beginning phases of their FA journey.
Elizebeth,
I was already planning a page in my head that will outline our definition of diet talk. I have created a draft under Pages. Take a look and let me know what you think.
Peace,
Shannon
@Elizabeth Turnquist
I certainly do not feel picked on; your our comments have never struck me as anything but respectful.
I’m afraid I was unclear. It is absolutely true that most, if not all, of FA blogs have historically banned “diet talk.” Here, “diet talk” is usually taken to include any mention of current or future dieting, or mention of past diets that could be read as an endorsement of dieting. Discussions of past negative experiences with dieting may be prefaced by a “diet talk” warning, especially if they include mention of specific numbers or eating regimens, in deference to folks who are in recovery from eating disorders.
I agree that FFF is unique in its role as a self-proclaimed FA site that welcomes DIET TALK, albeit with warnings. My point was simply that DIETERS are (at least in theory) welcome to read and comment on FA sites; they are simply expected to play by the “no diet talk” rule.
How can a diet-talk-free space be welcoming to dieters, or help dieters learn to embrace (even partially), the ideas of FA?
That’s a complicated issue, which could definitely be the subject of a post of its own. I feel that I’ve alreadysaid way too much on this thread, so I won’t go into it here. However, I was thinking of doing some writing about this on my own site, as soon as I get my thoughts in order. If you’re at all interested, I would love to share the result.
Simone Lovelace -
Even if we disagree, I have to tell you how much I appreciate your willingness to participate in the discussion. You’ve handled yourself admirably throughout this dialog and I’m grateful for your contribution.
Blame the california hippy part of me but I think it’s awesome when two people can disagree but still be rational and reasonable.
Hey, I went to school in California!
Instead of blaming the hippie in you, can I bake it vegan cookies instead?
They don’t taste vegan, I promise!
Simone Lovelace -
I’m oft to partake of vegan cookies. With my food allergy to milk and wheat, sometimes they are the best option.
And I’ve tasted some pretty darn tasty vegan cookies in my time. My fave is Alternative Baking Company Mac the Chip cookie. Yummy!
I wanted to clarify something I am not that Lisa,the author or blogger of Lisa’s Life Lessons.I currently do not blog. What I would do professionally if I had the health to do it,as a Bariatric Motivational coach and rehabilitative/adaptive Personal Trainer would probably include weight loss if someone felt that it would be a tiny aspect in getting physically and emotionally healthier, that would seperate from my being passionate and vocal about anti-wls,anti-dieting(which I wouldn’t enourage professionally) and fat acceptance and eradicating sizism,fat phobia,prejudice and bashing.
Shannon, I just wanted to say that I like your approach better. You are the kind of person that thinks we should all accept each other as PEOPLE first. I have struggled with eating disorders for years and although I am all about accepting myself as I am, I sometimes have a hard time doing so. Some fat acceptance groups seem to be about hating on skinny people and I am not about hating on anyone. I’ve had too much hate directed at me. Why would I want to do it to others?