Table Turning —
Sometimes I need a few days to fully gather my thoughts. I still have some things to say that I didn’t cover in yesterday’s post, plus there are a few Facebook comments I want to address here, as they would quickly devour my wall.
In particular, Alison’s comment caught my eye:
Ehh everyone is entitled to an opinion. I’m more on the Fatima end of things than the Shannon end, I guess because it’s nice to hear ONCE IN A WHILE “Fat is better!” since what I usually hear is “thin is better.” I totally get your point,… two wrongs don’t make a right, etc., but…as a sometimes-insecure fat lady, it is REALLY NICE to hear someone thinks my body type is MORE appealing than the norm, not just equally appealing.
Alison, I totally, totally, TOTALLY get this. And people (particularly women) who are relatively new to Fat Acceptance and are still learning to love their own bodies will often feel empowered by the “fat is better” mentality. I mean, after a lifetime of being told that your body his hideous, horrible, and terrible, it feels good to say, “No fucking way, my body is so fucking awesome and much, MUCH better and sexier than that walking coat rack over there.”
There’s nothing more empowering than turning the tables on the dominant paradigm and saying, “Fuck you, it’s skinny people who are unnatural!”
But I believe that Fat Acceptance should aspire to something more than table turning.
Anyone who had a rough childhood or has kids dealing with schoolyard bullies, you know what the first grown-up response is: “They’re only tearing you down to build themselves up” or something to that effect.
Everyone knows that when children do this, it’s wrong, it’s unhealthy and we discourage it across the board.
Well, the same applies to adults. If valuing your fat body requires devaluing their thin bodies, then you’re doing it wrong. Period.
Alison, there are other, more positive ways to embrace your beautiful body. Depending upon negativity and competitive thinking does not lift you up… it drags them down and puts both of you in the same self-loathing muck. Yeah, maybe you can force yourself onto the shoulders of that skinny girl and make yourself feel taller, but ultimately, you’re still miring in the muck of the Good Body/Bad Body swamp.
When I mentioned yesterday that body shaming is one big sphere, this is what I’m talking about. The media wants you to believe that there are good bodies and bad bodies. Good bodies (for women) are young, thin, light-skinned, big-breasted, small-waisted, healthy and strong. Bad bodies are old, sick, dark, flat and/or fat.
Now, right now, the primary attention of the media is on the fat, bad bodies, and Fat Acceptance is responding to that attention. We are desperately trying to convince the world that, no, fat bodies are not bad bodies. Is it easy? Hell no. It would be easier to convince Donald Trump that he’s a piece of shit.
But I believe that part of the problem is that we are so hyper-focused on selling fat bodies as good bodies that we forget that almost everyone in this country has been told that something about their bodies is bad. Almost everyone has some “defect” that fills them with self-loathing and shame, and that they would do anything to change.
Maybe instead of trying to convince the world that fat bodies are good bodies, we should be promoting the idea that all bodies are good bodies. Maybe that’s why the more I get into these discussions, the more I lean toward calling myself a Body Acceptance activist who primarily focuses on Fat Acceptance.
But that’s another post for another day.
In short, Alison, by taking refuge in the “fat is better” belief, you are not attacking the root of the problem. By saying “fat is better,” you are going after the branches, the consequences of a culture that promotes the idea of good bodies and bad bodies. When you quote someone as saying that “women should have hips, boobs and a stomach” (not you specifically, obviously) you are simply telling thin women that they have the bad bodies, not you.
But it isn’t the fault of thin women that our society denigrates fat women. Yeah, there are thin women who benefit from that belief and flaunt their “superiority” over fat women. But they weren’t born body shaming assholes. It’s something they were taught from a very young age. They are a product of our culture and, as such, aren’t wholly responsible for those ignorant opinions.
I’m going to draw a race comparison (which often gets me into trouble) because it may explain what I’m getting at better. After slavery, our nation enacted laws that explicitly devalued and dehumanized black people. With the consent of the US government, racism flourished and hate crimes were all too common.
Were those people who harbored racist beliefs responsible for their ignorance? Not entirely. If you are raised by racist parents in a racist country that writes racist laws and turns a blind eye to acts of violence and intimidation toward black people, then guess what the odds are of you becoming a racist?
Enter the Civil Rights Act and the deconstruction of that government-sanctioned racism. Forty-five years later, how does the racism of the first half of the 20th century compare to the first half of the 21st?
Yes, Civil Rights leaders confronted racists and told them why their beliefs were wrong, but they didn’t stop there. They turned from the branches to the roots, and fought the system that enabled racism to thrive. Likewise, when promoting black pride, leaders like Martin Luther King Jr. did not promote the idea that black people are better than white people, but that all people deserve equality and freedom. Yes, there were black pride leaders who did teach that black people were better than white people, but most recognize that messages of racial superiority, regardless of which direction, is not productive.
Likewise, I strongly oppose any mentality that pits thin against fat. I don’t have a problem with thin people loving their bodies, so long as they don’t stand in the way of me loving mine.
Perfect example: do you know who is one of Beth Ditto’s biggest supporters?
Kate “Nothing tastes as good as skinny feels” Moss.
And how does Beth, one rad fatty, feel about it?
You can’t hate a person for dieting, and you can’t blame a person for feeling shit about themselves. You have to blame the machine that feeds it, the thing that makes people feel like that. There are lots of things that are part of that machine, and it’s too easy to lay the blame at the feet of women – men don’t know what it feels like to be a woman and be expected to look a particular way all the time.
Also, I’m not sure if you know, but I’m a Fat Admirer (aka, I think fat women are beautiful).
To me, there is nothing sexier than my wife’s fat body. I love the way she looks, I love the way she feels, I love the way she moves. Her body is a great, big, fat, erotic temple to divine delights and polymorphic pleasure. And I’m not the only one who feels this way. Other men and women are just as aroused by the fat, female body as I am, so if you need to hear or see that kind of opinion, you can easily surround yourself with nothing but adoration.
The best place to look? Tumblr.
There are a few body loving blogs I would recommend, but the common thread to all of them is that they do not achieve that self-love by stepping on thin bodies. They adore their bodies in spite of a culture that says they shouldn’t, not to spite the bodies our culture says they should.
A few Tumblrs I would recommend (some have NSFW photos, so tread carefully):
- Big Belly Babes
- Chubby Bunnies
- DEATHFATTIES
- Fuck Yeah, Fat Positive
- The Thickness (Warning: sexually explicit)
There are others as well, but this should give you a great place to start.
Sorry for unloading all of this on you, Alison, but your comment help solidify some thoughts I’ve had swirling in my head the past few days. These aren’t really all directed at you, but toward those who feel like you do: that feeling superior to thin women gives a much-needed ego boost after years of coping with society’s stinkeye. But there is a better way to uplift yourself without taking the piss out of other women.
Now I’d like to respond to Fatima, who asked,
What would you say to the perpetrators of this type of public abuse? a real thin bashing horrible abuse, not a quote in a closed group that no thin person from the type you defend is a member of?
She included a link to this video, which I didn’t watch, because I would say the same thing to the person who posted that video as I said to you, but probably with a few more profanities and insults.
So, here’s the long and short of it: yes, the quote and the additional comments about “womanly bodies” were in a closed group, but that does not matter.
Fatima Parker, you are a leader. People look to you for guidance on how to navigate this difficult world of Size Acceptance and when they see you endorsing the Good Bodies/Bad Bodies belief system, then they will follow your lead.
You continue to talk about women who have “bodies like a boy” as though the only women who are flat-chested or flat-hipped are anorexic.
Well guess what: you are using the exact same baseless assumptions that lead most of our society to assume that all fat people are gluttonous sloths.
When we say that you cannot tell the health of a person by looking at them, it applies to thin bodies as well. You cannot tell by looking at a person whether they are anorexic, bulimic or have a binge-eating disorder. By suggesting that only anorexic women have those “bodies like boys” you are simply saying, “I can make assumptions about you and your body, but don’t you dare make assumptions about mine!”
And let’s just assume for a minute you’re right: all flat-chested, flat-hipped women are anorexic. Then I would say how dare you! How dare you take out your frustration on women who have a mental disorder! How dare you add to their emotional distress by suggesting that they are not women, that their bodies are bad! Don’t you think they are already coping with mountains of self-loathing without you heaping it on?
As far as it being a closed group, SO WHAT? You think of the 1,000 members of the ISAA group that none of them have a mother with anorexia? Or a sister who is extremely thin? My mother-in-law dealt with anorexia throughout my wife’s childhood, which impacted her relationship with her body and food. My sister-in-law is rail thin and flat-chested (though she is not anorexic, thank God!). She has just as much a right to think of her body as womanly and beautiful as you do.
And when you tie femininity to certain traits (hips, boobs and a stomach), do you think that doesn’t affect fat women? I once dated a woman who was fat and flat. Absolutely NO BREASTS to speak of, whatsoever.
If you had to guess, what would you say the hardest part of her body was to love? The fat or the flat?
Answer: The flat.
We had many discussions about it and she felt less womanly because our society says that a woman “should have” big boobs. Was she womanly? Hell yeah! But if she had read the quote you posted or the subsequent comments you made reinforcing that quote, she would have been just as hurt as if she were the thin women that your comment was aimed at.
Our culture prizes curves on women. While the fashion industry reveres boobless, hipless women, every single Hollywood movie features a female lead with a tiny waist, fake boobs and a round (but not too round) butt. So that quote and your comment aligns nicely with the pre-existing belief system (curves are womanly), but expands it to include fat women.
Meanwhile, that same pre-existing belief system says that men “should be” muscular, toned and testosterone-y. That sure as hell isn’t me, let alone all the fat men that support ISAA. Are we to expect some treatise on what a manly body “should be” or does your determination of appropriate bodies only apply to women?
So, yeah, maybe the ISAA group is closed, but your comments aren’t made in a vacuum. You are supposed to be leading by example and right now your example is terrible. You have decided that it is okay to turn the tables on the Good Body/Bad Body system. You have decided that body shaming is okay, so long as it’s aimed at the right people.
Well, in my opinion, there is no right “person” to place body shame on. There is no right or wrong bodies. There is simply a dysfunctional system of oppression that rewards the Good Bodies and demonizes the Bad Bodies, and that is where I choose to direct my energy.
And as much as I adore and support all of the work you have done in the past, Fatima, I simply cannot support a person or an organization that engages in any form of body shaming in any direction. You may have kicked me out of the ISAA group, but if your attitude continues in this direction, then there is no amount of money that you could offer me to rejoin.
Body shaming is always wrong in every instance for every body. All bodies are good. The only bad thing in this equation is the judgment and shame that our culture promotes and that you have now chosen to support.
I wish you all the best, but I hope you change your mind.
“Maybe instead of trying to convince the world that fat bodies are good bodies, we should be promoting the idea that all bodies are good bodies.”
This in a nutshell. I couldn’t have said it better myself. I’m so sick of all the endless sniping, and people just need to get a clue and stop drawing artificial divides. I already have misanthropic tendencies to begin with, this shit is not helping! XD
Thanks CC. Hey, did you see the movie review I did the other day (end of the article) about “Mary and Max”? The Max character has Aspberger’s. Thought it would be right up your alley.
Peace,
Shannon
(Tiny nitpick: no B in Asperger’s.
)
I did see it and have been debating whether or not to take a look; we think fat people are portrayed negatively in the media, yeesh; the only character I can think of on “network” TV or in film that’s described as an Aspie that doesn’t horribly offend me is Spencer Reid on Criminal Minds. Too often autistic people get painted as automatons and that’s simply not the case; the question is not -having- feelings, it’s about -how to express them appropriately.- I’ll probably give the film a flier and see what happens.
I’ve been spelling it wrong all this time myself-I’ll remember now!
I love Spencer. I think it’s great to have such a positive portrayal of a differently abled person. I know that phrase is kind of cliche and PC, but I keep the phrases I like, no matter where they come from!
I took some sort of a screener once that placed me as being borderline Asperger’s. It doesn’t matter to me how accurate this description is per se, all I know is that my mind functions differently and I have never fit in. I do have bipolar disorder and OCD.
We should all try to see the best in each other, not the worst.
I don’t know if it’s appropriately portrayed. The story takes place in the ’70s (I think) and Max reacts to emotions with panic attacks (usually involving standing on a chair and rocking back and forth, sometimes for days). Other than when he’s triggered, he just seems like a gruff New Yorker who is kind of clueless on emotional stuff. Plus Max is voiced by Philip Seymour Hoffman, who is awesome (and I didn’t realize it was him until afterward). I’d be curious to see what you think of the portrayal of AS. It’s streaming on Netflix if you have that.
Peace,
Shannon
I very much appreciated this “thought gathering”, Shannon. Nice to be reminded not to let the “pendulum of justice” swing waaaaay over to the other extreme and become the pendulum of tit-for-tat. That solves nothing.
I have learned a lot about (how not to be into) body-shaming - of any sort - since I joined FFF. Thanks for the lessons.
Great way to put it, Fab… in our search for justice and compassion, let’s not become what we despise.
And thanks for the kind words.
Peace,
Shannon
I wrote a post on my blog back in March which addresses this with a hypothetical program called “The Biggest Gainer.” I hope that it illustrates that swinging the pendulum the other way and attacking thin people is not the answer. The answer is to fight the system itself, not other people individually.
http://fattyfaycin.blogspot.com/2011/03/i-dont-need-to-be-fixed.html
Loved it, Fay! Beautifully explained points!
Thank you!
I am in agreement with you, Shannon. I’m also reminded of how some women think that exploiting men is the answer to the fact that women have been exploited for so long. I have never thought that this was the answer. We need to be exploiting women less, not exploiting men as well.
In this case, we need to not be shaming thin people but presenting fat bodies in a positive light. I think the best way to do this is show people doing positive things: working out, caring for their kids, wearing attractive clothes, dancing-you know, the things that fat people actually do!
Also in my fiction writer persona, it may be a small thing, but I try to have interesting characters of all sizes, races, and sexual orientations in my story, not just the boring “sexy Playboy centerfold and gorgeous Hollywood hunk” tropes that populate so many tales.
Faycin,
That’s what I love about British television: so much diversity and it doesn’t seem forced at all. But yeah, simply making everyone miserable doesn’t solve anything.
Peace,
Shannon
I appreciate what you’re trying to do, but it would be awesome if you could ask permission before quoting me on something. I get that Facebook uses your real name and I have now removed you from my “friends” list because I like to keep a little bit of a lower profile online. Maybe I should interact only from Tumblr where my real name isn’t available? I wasn’t being interviewed, I was chiming in on a conversation and now you’re pretty much attacking me. I get it, I’m a hypocrite, I’m bad at being fat, I’m doing fat acceptance all wrong, contributing to the problem, blah blah. That’s fine, I get it, but having a whole article written about some stuff I said in passing on Facebook makes me kind of uncomfortable. Thanks.
Actually Alison, I agree with you about the name thing. Of course I didn’t give it (your identity) a second thought until you brought it to my/our attention. But I still agree… your full name should not have been used here, or anywhere, without your permission — although if your original comments to which Shannon is responding were publicly posted *with your full name* then it’s kind of a moot point, no?
But anyway, I also did not see his post as a personal ‘attack’ on you, (like I said, your identity means nothing to me, at all) but rather an example of a very common comment many of us make (or have made in the past) and how Shannon feels about it. He was merely asking you to see those types of comments from another perspective…. something you don’t want to do, or can’t see. Fair enough. That’s up to you.
Question; have you gotten any personal, one-on-one negative feedback (insults, attacks, etc) as a result of this posting here at FFF? Because I would be very surprised if you did… and sincerely hope you have not.
(putting this here too since it’ll show as a reply to your reply)
No, it’s not a moot point, because my Facebook is set to Friends-Only on EVERYTHING, so what I post there is for only my friends. For Shannon to come here and quote me on a website that is public makes me uncomfortable.
Since I have blocked him from my Friends list for this reason, no I have not received any feedback because I will not be receiving things related to that thread anymore. Oddly enough after this discussion, Fatima sent me a friend request.
This whole exchange leaves a sour taste in my mouth regarding Fat Acceptance, and I think I’ll go back to just BEING fat and not talking about it and analyzing it all the time.
Alison,
First of all, I am sorry for using your full name. You are absolutely right, I should not have identified you as such. It didn’t even occur to me until you mentioned it how putting you in the spotlight like that could make somebody extremely uncomfortable. I have removed your last name and I am incredibly sorry for not having through through that in the first place.
As far as quoting you, Fab nailed it… what you said was a very common comment in those who are still learning to accept themselves. I wasn’t attempting to attack you or call you a hypocrite or say you were bad at being fat, doing FA wrong or contributing to the problem. I wasn’t attempting to shame you or put you down. All I wanted to do was explain in greater detail (the kind of detail that the limited space on Facebook doesn’t allow) why it’s important that people move past the thin vs. fat stage of self-acceptance. I felt like you represented the kind of viewpoint that Fatima’s comments might have lent credence to.
The difference is that you’re new to this game and that Fatima is not. You’re still learning and Fatima is teaching. My hope was that this response would reach not just you, but others like you who are still believe it’s okay, or harmless, to play the thin vs. fat game. It’s something I do a lot: if someone asks a question that can provide a springboard for a bigger issue, then I use it. From now on, I will ask first before simply quoting someone who has no idea what I’m planning.
Again, I’m sorry for using your name and dragging you into the middle of this. I think a lot of positive has come from this post, so I also want to thank you for providing that springboard.
I hope you’ll return.
Peace,
Shannon
No, it’s not a moot point, because my Facebook is set to Friends-Only on EVERYTHING, so what I post there is for only my friends. For Shannon to come here and quote me on a website that is public makes me uncomfortable.
Since I have blocked him from my Friends list for this reason, no I have not received any feedback because I will not be receiving things related to that thread anymore. Oddly enough after this discussion, Fatima sent me a friend request.
This whole exchange leaves a sour taste in my mouth regarding Fat Acceptance, and I think I’ll go back to just BEING fat and not talking about it and analyzing it all the time.
As i said, I understand your disappointment.
Peace, Sistah.
OMFG, I keep forgetting everyone is in the Witness Protection program and cannot be identified ever anywhere. Should Shannon have fuzzed last names? Maybe, but given that Facebook is a public forum and his page is open, he probably asdumed it was okay. Did you message him first before freaking out and blocking him? Hmmm….
Shannon made a good point. I’ve made derisive comments anout thinner people and people bigger than I. The point is, you’re breaking habits and behaviors long learned. Its not an overnight conversion. Fat and Size Acceptance should just be Body Acceptance. I’ve been guilty, but I’m learning. And Shannon, you can quote me any time. I’m in a public forum, and anything said can be used for or against me in the Court of Public Opinion
LJ,
I understand why Alison was bothered by this. Some people aren’t comfortable being in the middle of a big discussion like this. Honestly, I should have asked her first, but I was too much in my writing mode to consider anything else. But I’ll keep your offer in mind.
Peace,
Shannon
What I am weary about that kind of empowerment is that it’s roots come from the Fat Admiration years of Fat Acceptance. Back when there was little difference between NAAFA and Dimensions Magazine. Fat Acceptance’s lowest point
Still I am quick to give a general compliment to any Fat Person who shares themselves in the Fat-o-sphere.
Well, I was on vacation when this all blew up and didn’t have FFF bookmarked on my laptop (something I’m going to have to remedy, I guess), so I don’t know who the hell Alison is, nor do I particularly care. I’m sorry she was offended by Shannon using her comment as a jumping off point for this post, but that’s what happens when you post comments on Facebook and have friends that blog. My policy for posting online, everywhere, is not to post anything that I don’t want anyone to read/write about later on because it could come back to bite me in the ass. It’s called “think before you comment” (consequences do happen, ya know?).
As for the post itself, right on Shannon, you said it better than I ever could have. Kudos to you, sorry I was late to the party.
Allison, I hope that you’re still reading this website, as I have just read Shannon’s blog and the comments. About two years ago, I vowed to myself that I would no longer make negative or demeaning comments about other women’s appearances. To tell the truth, that wasn’t a huge accomplishment since I generally didn’t make unkind remarks about people anyway. However, without that conscious decision, I would not have had an open mind to this website. I would have looked at the pictures of Dances with Fat and Live Once Juicy-Shaunta and thought, “They’re pretty, but they need to lose weight.” Now I just see the beauty and joy. I hope that, with time, you’ll be able to reread Shannon’s blog and have a more open mind to his message.
Oh! I know all about the fat/flat thing. I’m not flat, really, but I don’t really have the stereotyped fat woman’s boob-to-belly ratio. My tummy’s larger than my boobs and, honestly? It’s awkward… And, like Shannon said, I worry way more about my boobs not being big enough than my stomach being too big.
Lexie,
And I bet your boyfriend thinks you’re gorgeous just the way you are. It just goes to show that sometimes it takes other people to show us what we’re missing.
Peace,
Shannon
Hanna Blank Says::
http://www.hanneblank.com/blog/2011/06/23/real-women/
Excuse me while I throw this down, I’m old and cranky and tired of hearing the idiocy repeated by people who ought to know better.
Real women do not have curves. Real women do not look like just one thing………………………………………………(use the link)
I read that, and I so agree with her. I even posted a link to it on my Facebook wall for all my friends to read.